Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 11:57:17 -0400 From: Mikhail Teterin <mi+mx@aldan.algebra.com> To: "Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru>, i18n@FreeBSD.org Cc: Maxim Sobolev <sobomax@FreeBSD.org>, anholt@FreeBSD.org Subject: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u (Re: cvs commit: ports/x11-fonts/XFree86-4-fontCyrillic) Message-ID: <200209041155.15033.mi%2Bmx@aldan.algebra.com> In-Reply-To: <20020904140410.GA30776@nagual.pp.ru> References: <200209031042.g83AgFON078508@freefall.freebsd.org> <200209040841.45490@aldan> <20020904140410.GA30776@nagual.pp.ru>
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[Moved to FreeBSD-i18n@] On Wednesday 04 September 2002 10:04 am, Andrey A. Chernov wrote: = On Wed, Sep 04, 2002 at 08:41:45 -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: = > I'm afraid, you did not quite understand me. I don't suggest we = > install koi8-u fonts and pretend (in fonts.dir), that they are = > koi8-r -- that would violate a standard. What I advocate is to = > populate X11R6/lib/fonts/cyrillic/ with koi8-u fonts instead of the = > koi8-r. Now, which standard does this violate? = Why instead? Just add them there. koi8-r is Cyrillic subset too, at = least. Can you name one scenario, where someone would knowingly prefer a koi8-r font over a koi8-u one? In other words, some real application, that depends on those few pseudo-graphics symbols, that koi8-u replaces with non-Russian, but still Cyrillic letters? Having both installed by default just wastes diskspace and -- if installed in the same directory -- X-server's memory. If somewhere such a scenario exists, the koi8-r can be installed in addition. For years, many people needing koi8-u had to install a separate port because "Cyrillic" was not enough. Now a much smaller number of people (I estimate the number to be between 0 and 1) will have to install a separate koi8-r port (or your russian/X.language) instead. As I mentioned already, koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u, let's move on. = > The biggest confusion so far, has been Russian-only fonts installed = > as Cyrillic. Strangely, it did not bother you... = Because they are Cyrillic subset. I appreciate any Cyrillic subset = installed as Cyrillic, all of them, but not as replacement. I not see = any reason for replacement, all fonts can be installed. The are "Russian". They should've been named as such. Naming them "Cyrillic" just brings back the horrible memories of Russia's dominance over its neighbours... See below on replacement vs. addition. = > Exactly. So, please, cite the standard, that is violated by Maxim's = > recent change. = Not standards but common sense. Your earlier e-mails seemed to have claimed standard violations. I'm glad we are past that... As you can see, serious doubts remain over the "common sense" part too. = > There are no standards covering this aspect of port names. Most = > (all?) names of the ports installing fonts do not specify encodings. = > Cyrillic never meant koi8-r -- except for some ignorant people -- = > and was never documented as such. Maxim just brought the port closer = > to the reasonable expectations. = Cyrillic means koi8-r, as subset. No. koi8-r means Cyrillic, but not the other way around. In fact, I even doubt the former -- I'm fairly certain, the alphabet created by Cyril and Methody in the 9th century had the ``i'' letter, that koi8-r is missing... (-: = If I'll agree with your point of view, I immediately step in and = replace koi8-u fonts with windows-1251 fonts which are Cyrillic, and = you can't say anything. Mm, no: . Windows-1251 is hardly a standard . It is not at all compatible with the things you say it can replace (unlike koi8-u, which is hard to distinguish from koi8-r) . It does not provide any more letters over the koi8-u Any one of the reasons above is sufficient, but altogether they refute your point soundly. = I told you, your "replacement" idea is very very bad. Nothing should = replace anything. All things must co-exists. I see nothing wrong with obsoleted things being replaced by their modern equivalents. There is no point in keeping the obsolete bits, such as koi8-r charsets -- especially in X11, but also in the syscons, BTW. As you confirmed some time ago, none of the pseudo-graphics replaced in the koi8-r by koi8-u are used by the termcaps anyway. Removing the share/syscons/fonts/koi8-r* would be quite welcome. Temporary aliases can be suggested to ease the transition. -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message
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