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Date:      Wed, 14 Mar 2001 12:15:09 -0700 (MST)
From:      Nate Williams <nate@yogotech.com>
To:        Jordan Hubbard <jkh@osd.bsdi.com>
Cc:        nate@yogotech.com, phk@critter.freebsd.dk, grog@lemis.com, rwatson@FreeBSD.org, imp@harmony.village.org, cvs-committers@FreeBSD.org, cvs-all@FreeBSD.org
Subject:   Re: Core's function (was: The Project and onward [was: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/netinet ip_output.c]) 
Message-ID:  <15023.49981.504894.198797@nomad.yogotech.com>
In-Reply-To: <20010314105913O.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>
References:  <10215.984516433@critter> <20010313134342A.jkh@osd.bsdi.com> <15023.42546.30738.1117@nomad.yogotech.com> <20010314105913O.jkh@osd.bsdi.com>

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> > True, but if 'core' gave it's blessing to those folks instead of sitting
> > back and not getting involved until long *after* the flag-waving
> > individual has been so beaten down that they leave in disgust, we may
> > get more done.
> 
> I'm afraid that argument doesn't make very much sense.  If we truly
> have a culture of "beating down" people who wave flags as you say,

I believe we do.  Note the tone of recent posting of 'everything is a
bike-shed'.

> then core's encouragement would seem to matter far less than reforming
> that culture so that flag wavers aren't getting beaten down in the
> first place.

Core's lack of involvement is allowing this behavior to continue.
Core's involvement would *a* solution, not necessarily the only
solution, or even the full solution.

> It's sort of like saying that we could solve all these issues with the
> high school shootings if every student went to school with an armed
> police officer as an escort rather than addressing the culture of
> bullying and alienation which is the root of the actual problem.

Again, using your analogy above, should the teachers refuse to get
involved with the process and wait until *after* the shootings have
occurred?  That's what you're implying above.  Core is the over-sight
committee, and by getting involved *earlier* they can have a positive
effect on the discussions, and try to help out the discussions so that
the bullys don't end up taking over the school. :)

> I'm also a little peeved at your accusation that I, by having the
> temerity to suggest that people *other* than core should also get
> involved, am also saying that I or core don't do jack to encourage
> people.

I never said.  I'm saying that 'individuals' do, but the core as a whole
doesn't.  When core individuals get involved, they do it as themselves,
(and sometimes contribute as much to the problem as the solution).

> That's clearly bovine exhaust since I often answer literally
> hundreds of emails a day (you should see my outbox) and encourage
> people all over the place, as do many others in core

That kind of behavior is not just limited to core members, as you well
know.  I never meant to imply that just because it's not in a public
mailing list doesn't mean that work isn't being done.

However, what I believe Jeroen is asking for is 'direction' and
'blessing'.  What is the future of FreeBSD?  What flags are flying that
reflect the 'core' values of FreeBSD that are not dead-ends?

> (I'm convinced that Robert Watson is a one-man writing machine).

Sort-of like Terry, but understandable by normal human-beings. :)

> That doesn't make
> the "AND WHAT IS CORE DOING ABOUT IT?!?" threads any more tolerable or
> prevent me from suggesting, over and over again if necessary, that
> other people still need to get off their asses and become part of the
> welcome wagon if they want all this new blood and talent.

Blood and talent don't know *IF* what they are doing will be accepted,
so unless they have direction.

> When was the last time YOU mentored someone for committers, might I
> ask?

My 'mentoring' happens in a CVS tree that is non-public, for reasons you
are well aware of.  You want me to mentor someone in the FreeBSD tree,
just say the word.




Nate

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