Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:13:08 -0400 From: drifter@stratos.net To: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no>, Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>, fpawlak@execpc.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Does it's true? Message-ID: <19980627211308.B392@stratos.net> In-Reply-To: <19980627182937.40983@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 06:29:37PM %2B0200 References: <19980627034631.A944@stratos.net> <199806270857.CAA17321@softweyr.com> <19980627182937.40983@follo.net>
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On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 06:29:37PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 27, 1998 at 02:57:26AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote:
> > My hidden microphone recorded (drifter@stratos.net) saying:
> >>> Overall you are probably better for it. In the US there are
> >>> entirely too many guns walking around. Some of these kids with
> >>> ^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^
> >>
> >> Interesting choice of words, possibly indicative of perspective?
> >> Personification of guns, or "guns walking around", is probably
> >> a phrase uttered by a gun-control advocate, whereas "criminals walking
> >> around with guns" is maybe more likely to be spoken of by an NRA advocate.
> >
> > No, it's well known that guns walk around by themselves here in
> > the USA. Sometimes they have people attached to them, but the
> > people are not responsible for any crimes committed, because the
> > problem is the guns. The people attached to the guns are just
> > another class of victim.
> >
> > Right, Frank?
>
> No, "Wrong, Wes."
>
> There are clear problems with having a large amount of handguns.
> Handguns are more effective weapons than knives, thus you get more
> dead people when criminals use guns instead of knives. This happen
This is one common-sense statement that I happen to agree with
gun control advocates on. Guns certainly do make it /easier/ to kill
people than knives do. (And bombs make it even easier than guns.)
But sorry, Eivind, Wes is right about personal responsibility.
While I agree with the necessity for common-sense regulation
of firearms consistent with traditional understanding of the Second Amendment,
(in the U.S., at least) the old NRA adage of "Guns don't kill people,
people kill people" is a truth many don't want to accept, even if they pay
lip service to it.
People kill because they are bad, not because of people like
Charlton Heston talking about gun rights all of the time. I am not
a member of the NRA, and don't even own a firearm. (The only time I
ever shot off one was a time I went skeet shooting -- hit the first
clay pigeon and then went 0 for 29!) But I am sick and tired of them
being blamed for crimes committed by murderers who lack decency and
respect for human life.
I am not an expert on gun history, but I believe gun laws were
more lax in the earlier part of the century (please correct me if I am
wrong), yet violence was also not as rampant. Maybe because people
these days care less and less about right and wrong?
> when you allow people to get weapons that are intended for use on
> humans easily, and is worsened by a culture (e.g, the US culture)
> where it is considered OK to murder people. (If you, the reader, say
> to yourself that you don't consider it OK, then you'd better be
> actively opposing the use of death penalty - otherwise you've just
> turned your logic off in what you say to yourself)
It is only "murder" if you believe it is immoral to take the life
of another human being if said human being cold-bloodedly murdered someone
else. It /is/ a view-point held by many in this country, though not the
majority.
Remember, Eivind, this argument can be turned on its
head if I ask you about your government's (Norway -- unless 'yes.no' really
is a made-up domain name) and society's attidude towards abortion,
which is apparently more permissive there (very few legal restrictions) than
here in the United States...
>
> Eivind, who comes from the country in the world with the second
> highest count of guns per person and with 1 killing per 100,000
> citizens per year.
There. Now we've covered gun control, the death penalty, and
abortion. Sweat shops anybody :)
--
drifter@stratos.nospam.net (remove nospam to send)
"Ever notice that in every commercial about the Internet, advertising
geniuses can't resist having a bunch of kids staring into a monitor, awe-
struck, looking at a whale jumping out of the ocean? Or is it just me?"
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