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Date:      Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:17:46 -0400 (EDT)
From:      John Bleichert <syborg@stny.rr.com>
To:        Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc:        Brian Astill <bastill@sa.apana.org.au>, <questions@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject:   Re: Is simplicity despised? WAS: What do we need in a FreeBSD desktop?
Message-ID:  <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208060814060.6505-100000@janeway.vonbek.dhs.org>
In-Reply-To: <20020806044044.GA45553@wantadilla.lemis.com>

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Nobody will ever convince me there's a better wm-agnostic editor than 
nedit for a new user. 

Also, does anybody really want the FreeBSD installer changed? Maybe the 
addition of an 'instant-workstation' install would be ok, but in my IMHO 
/stand/sysinstall is the best installer out there. 

Installers should only be *so* easy. Hobbyists who want to try out new 
things should be willing to break it a few times. People who want 
butt-simple installs should just ask somebody else to do it.

Sorry, I know I'll probably get flamed for that, but the thought of a 
click-through win9x install for Unix makes me ill. The linux installers 
are just this side of nasuea ... 

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:

> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:10:44 +0930
> From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@FreeBSD.ORG>
> To: Brian Astill <bastill@sa.apana.org.au>
> Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG
> Subject: Re: Is simplicity despised? WAS: What do we need in a FreeBSD
>     desktop?
> 
> On Tuesday,  6 August 2002 at 13:01:53 +0930, Brian Astill wrote:
> > I was intellectually offended by the response to my suggestion that there is
> > a use for a simple instrument such as the text editor le.
> > Apparently if it isn't comprehensive and complicated it is to be despised as
> > a "toy".
> > Does that mean that users of FreeBSD are to become elitist intellectual
> > snobs, discarding on principle that which is easy to use and understand?
> > There is a precept that I embrace, called
> > KEEP IT SIMPLE - STUPID!
> >
> > Shouldn't we all use the simplest and easiest method to accomplish a task,
> > not deliberately choose the complex "over-kill" alternative?
> 
> If there's one thing that you need to learn early on, it's a good
> editor.  I did install le just to see what it was like.  I think the
> average user would find it harder to use than Emacs.
> 
> The reason for this is simple: people don't read documentation.  Emacs
> gives you the documentation where you need it, in the menus.  le may
> do so, but if it does, it's hiding it well.  Take a look at the first
> two attachments, showing the top and the bottom of the window which it
> displays once you give it a file name.  There's nothing at the top,
> and the bottom, apart from being almost illegible, gives little useful
> information.  I certainly don't know how to use it without finding the
> man page.  It took me some experimentation to find out how to stop the
> program.
> 
> By contrast, look at the Emacs window in which I'm writing this reply
> (third and fourth attachments).  I'd show the pull-down help window if
> I could; try it for yourself.
> 
> That's only the start, of course.  To reply to the mail message, I
> pass the message to an already running emacs via emacsclient.  I could
> write the reply with le as well, but how do I adjust the lines so that
> they're not too long or too short?  Now's the time to read the man
> page, which tells me that I can turn off the colours with the -b flag,
> but it doesn't seem to have anything beyond basic editing capability.
> By contrast, Emacs does automatic line breaking for me, and if I have
> rearranged the text, a single keystroke reformats the paragraph.  Why
> should I ever want to use le?
> 
> Greg
> --
> When replying to this message, please copy the original recipients.
> If you don't, I may ignore the reply.
> For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/questions.html
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> 

/* 
 * John Bleichert
 * syborg@stny.rr.com
 * http://vonbek.dhs.org/latest.jpg
 */


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