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Date:      Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:10:08 -0700
From:      Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
To:        Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>
Cc:        nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams), Mike Smith <msmith@FreeBSD.ORG>, Christopher Masto <chris@netmonger.net>, Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: HEADSUP: wd driver will be retired! 
Message-ID:  <199912101810.LAA19928@mt.sri.com>
In-Reply-To: <6152.944849073@critter.freebsd.dk>
References:  <199912101757.KAA19772@mt.sri.com> <6152.944849073@critter.freebsd.dk>

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> In message <199912101757.KAA19772@mt.sri.com>, Nate Williams writes:
> >> What we need here is a commitment to these new initiatives, not a lot of 
> >> fence-sitting and clutching our knitting to our chests.
> >
> >If all our users were developers I would agree.  But *most* of our users
> >are not developers.
> 
> -CURRENT should have very few users who are not developers in some
> capacity.

Sure, but in a couple of weeks, -current will be 4.0-Release, which is
not -current anymore.

> >Good question.  What are we trying to achieve here?  I thought it was to
> >provide the best OS that is usable to the largest number of users?
> 
> And this requires us to move away the old cruft so we force the
> people on the bleeding edge to test the new stuff.

Force people is what I'm having problems with.  *Most* people will
install 4.0, and give it a good shakeout.  The rest of the people are
choosing to stick with the old driver for their reasons, and you're (in
effect) telling them that you know better than they do what their needs
are.

And, you're 'forcing' them to either cod or have their systems not work
as well as they used to do.  From my experience, this is unacceptable if
we're in the business of providing a product/service to our users.

So, I ask again, what exactly are we trying to accomplish here?


> All in all, it sounds to me like a lot of people are presenting
> a stance which can be summarized as:
> 
> 	"why should *I* have to be guinea-pig for the ata driver
> 	in -current make somebody else test it first."

Right, there are people *WILLING* to test it.

> To which the answer is:  If you decide to run -current you have
> tacitly agreed to be a guinea-pig for FreeBSD developers, so
> shut up and test.

I'm with Warner.  If the ATA driver went golden 2-3 months ago, then I'd
say go for it.  But not 2-3 days ago.  You're only telling your
user-base that they are less important than you are.  (Although, this
may be what you believe, so who am I to tell you otherwise).





Nate


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