Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 14:00:59 +0100 From: Joe Holden <lists@rewt.org.uk> To: Juli Mallett <jmallett@FreeBSD.org> Cc: "freebsd-mips@FreeBSD.org" <freebsd-mips@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: -HEAD on gxemul/MALTA is broken Message-ID: <516FEE8B.8090908@rewt.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <CACVs6=9rLMUe23eSootVERkENkoTfk4NVJcULfRWWEQLPjy=LQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAJ-VmonpK2AazaLwc1ZQWve0bTFvtLGeF4K8jWM49rzp1j%2Bk%2BQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAJ-VmomiRo0ZpTd2=qeF9M=nBGmhd3jvqUy-4FtUxx4ok2yRew@mail.gmail.com> <516F46E0.7080204@rewt.org.uk> <CACVs6=9rLMUe23eSootVERkENkoTfk4NVJcULfRWWEQLPjy=LQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Juli Mallett wrote: > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Joe Holden <lists@rewt.org.uk> wrote: >> I reported this as a pr for Octeon, I'm seeing the same thing - no response >> yet though.... is MIPS ever likely to be a well supported platform given >> nobody pays attention? > > FreeBSD on MIPS is unfortunately not just one platform, and the name > is a little misleading. There is substantial difference between the > code for Octeon, XLR/XLP, the Atheros SoCs and other board-support > packages. It's easy for quirks of one or more to go unnoticed, or for > someone to be fixed in one without realizing that the fix is also > required in fairly-different code on another. > > We're talking about -CURRENT, too, which is a moving target. I > wouldn't suggest using a -STABLE branch for MIPS. I know several > companies using FreeBSD on MIPS without constant issues — I don't > think they'd argue that it's not a well-supported platform. What > they've done is more effort than the average casual user is likely to > put in, which is to identify a point-in-time at which things are > mostly working for them, identify the right people to contact to get > their major issues fixed, and then stay with that version for some > time, rather than either trying to track top-of-tree or getting stuck > with limited support in -STABLE. > > I run -CURRENT on Octeon on dozens of boards from time to time, but on > an ongoing basis on just two. It's mostly stable, although I do > notice some crashes on long-term uptime, and as I've mentioned to > several people in private, getting the most out of Octeon requires at > least doing a lot of your network processing in the kernel, or ideally > writing some slightly-specialized software. > > I have a Broadcom board that I run occasionally, a couple of Atheros > ones, and probably a few others I'm forgetting. > > It's understandable that when just starting to use a port of FreeBSD > -CURRENT to MIPS, on finding one or two things broken, to figure that > (1) it's never worked (2) it's broken for everyone. Both obviously > lead to the conclusion that nobody cares, and that things are > incomplete and unmaintained. > > But the amount of hardware FreeBSD/MIPS supports is incredible. I've > personally run FreeBSD/MIPS on perhaps two dozen different hardware > configurations, and have helped people run it on probably a dozen > more. That's just stuff I take some responsibility for. I know of > perhaps a hundred more that FreeBSD runs on. > > As for not paying attention: I don't update very often, and my focus > is really mostly on FreeBSD on Octeon when I can afford to pay any > attention at all. Adrian pays a lot of attention, but his focus is > mostly on Atheros hardware; he's able to spend the time and have > hardware access in part because of his relationship with that company. > There are others in similar positions, such as jchandra who puts in > huge amounts of work on RMI/NetLogic-based hardware, and with me has > done a lot of work on expanding 64-bit support and improving > performance. Neel has lots of other responsibilities, but has handled > a lot of work on keeping various MIPS hardware platforms working, as > well as being responsible for things like a fairly robust SMP > abstraction for MIPS, and the first real work on SMP FreeBSD/MIPS, > which made it a matter of hours for me to add SMP support for Octeon. > > What kind of attention would you like to be paid? How much latency in > addressing issues do you think is acceptable? How much work do you > think it's reasonable to expect users to do to get up and running with > what are, almost exclusively, embedded platforms? It may be that the > answer here is that we should wait for pfSense MIPS support to become > widely-available and stable, with ready-to-use images. > > FreeBSD/MIPS doesn't even come with a package set, as you know; it's > not a one-click operating system, it's more like an operating system > base. > > Is it likely that FreeBSD/MIPS will become more usable? Yes. Due to > tremendous amounts of volunteer labour from people who don't have a > lot of spare time, and the occasional burst of academic or commercial > support which allows for significant improvement to occur in a short > period of time. > > I try to find others to get involved (like Pat Kelsey who has been > very active in responding to SD and MMC threads since I hired him to > support MMC over SPI, which was a crucial missing feature on several > popular Atheros-based boards.) It's not always easy; sometimes > people's priorities or foci change, as with one engineer I was > delighted to be working with from a major SoC vendor, who stopped > answering E-Mails after committing some of his work had to be delayed > due to license issues with some code his employer wanted him to > commit. Whether he got reassigned, his bosses soured on FreeBSD's > inability to accept GPL'd Linux code into the kernel, or he simply > felt there was nothing left to do, I don't know. > > Being an open source developer is a lot more than waiting around for > bug reports to arrive and then fixing them. Even in paid software > development that isn't how it works; things get prioritized, and often > dealt with opportunistically. There's cases where in my paid work > I've known about a bug for years before I've had time to fix it > because other, more pressing issues keep coming up. And in open > source work, we're not just dealing with prioritizing work, dealing > with long-term planning, putting out fires, trying to keep up with > others' changes, and deal with bug-fixing. We also help to enable > each other to work better, and to become involved, and to stay > involved, and to fix things. I'm happiest when I'm able to help > others work on things they're excited about, and I think that's when > I'm doing my best work as a developer of open source software. Fixing > bugs is essential, but it's not always what there's resources for, > especially when FreeBSD gets, speaking for myself, such a slim sliver > of my time, because I have so much else on my plate. > > I do the best I can. If you can do better, I'd be thrilled to help > you get more involved with FreeBSD. I can respond to E-Mails about > things you're passionate about or interested in when I have no time, > or energy, or focus, to update to -CURRENT and make sure everything's > working great. I would love to see you become a FreeBSD developer and > make it better. It doesn't get better magically, but through the > commitment and hard work of people like you, or where that's not your > skill, through applying whatever yours is. Maybe you can help fund > work; maybe you can find bugs and hound people to get them fixed. > Making sure bugs gets fixed is important work, that requires > discipline and focus; it isn't every software developer's gift, and if > it's one you have, I'd encourage you to make use of it. Don't be > afraid to harangue people for breaking -CURRENT, but I'd discourage > vague insinuations of poor quality because you've hit a couple of > roadbumps. (Which is not to say those roadbumps should be there, but > to ask whose responsibility you think it is to level them.) > > I can't do as much as I like, but in addition to supporting other > non-profit causes that are important to me, I give money to the > FreeBSD Foundation. Their focus isn't FreeBSD/MIPS as such, but I'm > pretty confident that they'd help fund FreeBSD/MIPS projects if you > can find someone interested in working on them. I benefit a lot from > the work I put into FreeBSD; I have had several jobs pretty much > entirely because of it. FreeBSD means a lot to me and I don't want it > to suck, but there's only so much I can do. So I don't just take all > FreeBSD has to give me: an operating system to run, a regular (read: > overwhelming) supply of paid work, etc. I find ways to give back. > > I'm sorry for the length, but I think it's important to be very clear > about two things: (1) it's people like you who help make FreeBSD > better (2) they work very hard doing it, and the success of that work > should not be underestimated, even if it is somewhat undermined when > -CURRENT is so routinely in crap shape. I suggest specific and > regular technical complaints, though, over insinuations that we simply > don't care, or don't pay attention. > > I want to end there, but I'll say this: in addition to a few messages > from you, I've had half a dozen more this week alone from people who > need help with some aspect or another of FreeBSD on Octeon (getting > hardware, supporting new boards, improving the port, getting started, > etc.) I don't even have time to respond to all of them so much as > they deserve, but I do the best I can. (Which means that I usually > respond to FreeBSD-related E-Mail ahead of other personal > correspondance because it's important to me to try to do so.) On top > of that, dozens more messages related to FreeBSD in general, including > work that I'm funding, work that I'm doing, and the work that I (and > most other developers) do reading and reviewing and responding to > changes made to FreeBSD. > > Thanks, > Juli. When I said attention, I meant more as a platform, I realise it's not quite a Tier 1 arch but even arm has it's own category etc for problem reports - not attempting to devalue the enormous amount of work both you and others do, not just for MIPS but in general. I guess really I just expected the same as seen for example amd64... Either way, overly facetious comment - no offense intended and apologies if it did offend. Thanks
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