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Date:      Thu, 14 Dec 2000 07:58:11 -0600 (CST)
From:      Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org>
To:        kstewart@urx.com
Cc:        questions@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: advice with old equipment.
Message-ID:  <14904.53747.735579.713279@guru.mired.org>
In-Reply-To: <3A38AAEE.56303833@urx.com>
References:  <14904.1150.593498.981432@guru.mired.org> <3A381379.9F464204@urx.com> <14904.20712.193427.889148@guru.mired.org> <3A3862E1.A0D6E0C2@urx.com> <14904.28164.273218.788343@guru.mired.org> <3A38AAEE.56303833@urx.com>

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Kent Stewart <kstewart@urx.com> types:
> > > At some point after that, the cpu was spending time waiting for data
> > > and cache would really become important for some types of
> > > computations. On my systems currently, it is a 1/2 speed, full size
> > > cache on the P-II's/III's and a 1/4 size, full speed cache on the
> > > Celeron 433a. I had a 300a that I overclocked to 450 until it
> > > died. For about 2 months it out performed a P-III 450. It died from
> > > overheating building XFree86 3.3.4 after one of the releases. A
> > > trivia point is that adding PC-100 memory to the Celeron's speeded
> > > them up about 15%. You can get back some of the 150% you lose
> > > because of the cache and FSB.
> > I thought the PIIIs had full speed caches.
> Only the Coppermines (?). They went to full speed cache when they
> dropped the cache to 1/2 size. Before that they were 1/2 speed just
> like the P-II's.

Ah, ok. That makes sense. I suspect that means that 1/2 the cache at
full speed is better for most applications than the full cache at 1/2
speed.

> > > I got interested in the AMD Athlon because of the additional pipelines
> > > that the Intel Pentium's didn't have. I thought pipelines were
> > > important on the old Cray and a good algorithim would help the PC.
> > Pipelines were important on the old Crays. However, the important
> > pipline was in the array processors, not the CPU. When they did array
> > operations, the data from the input arrays were pipelined through the
> > array processor so that you could do hundreds of flops at the rate of
> > one per machine cycle. The CPU was pretty much RISC, which made all
> > the instruction decode stuff fast. For something like an AMD, the work
> > that led to the MIPS (IIRC, that's a machine *without* Interlock
> > Pipeline Stages - the compiler was supposed to make sure the there
> > were no bubbles in the pipeline, so the hardware didn't have to, and
> > hence could run faster) might be more relevant.
> Ok, they got into that a little bit when you would attend one of their
> performance courses. The first morning was all spent on understanding
> your hardware. You really couldn't take advantage of the compiler and
> the multiple cpu's until you understood some of those interactions but
> they couldn't spend too much time on the hardware because someone else
> was hired to cover that part. This is missing in the compilers we use.

Who is "they" in this case? MIPS or Cray? The classes I took at Cray
didn't run into that kind of problem.

> Cray compilers with everything turned on were really slow. In 1988, I
> think Lehey Fortran on a 486 25Mhz was just about the same speed on a
> line count basis.

From my benchmarks on the Cray I ran in the late 80s, it wouldn't
surprise me if *most* character-oriented things were about the same
speed on a 25MHz 486. The Cray architecture made doing a "grep" *slow*
(fetch word, shift, mask, shift again, cmp to do a single byte
compare). It wasn't noticably faster than a VAX for such things, and
VAXen weren't particularly fast.

On the other hand, if you set up your fortran to do array stuff -
well, mflops was what the machine was known for.

	<mike
--
Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org>			http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Unix/FreeBSD consultant,	email for more information.


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