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Date:      Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:20:18 -0600 (CST)
From:      Joe Greco <jgreco@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
To:        angio@aros.net (Dave Andersen)
Cc:        mtaylor@cybernet.com, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Proper FreeBSD news machine
Message-ID:  <199603071520.JAA13684@brasil.moneng.mei.com>
In-Reply-To: <199603070345.UAA21122@terra.aros.net> from "Dave Andersen" at Mar 6, 96 08:45:28 pm

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> Lo and behold, Joe Greco once said:
> 
> For comparison:
> 
> > Let me sketch out my news operation here.  I have multiple news peers, very
> > few readers, I retain about a million articles (5 to 7 days retention)..
> 
>   We have 6 peers, and about the same amount of retention.
> 
> > good deal, not because CPU was much of an issue.  I'd say I was running
> > 30-40% idle.  That suggests a DX2/66 would be squeaky, though.  The box is
> > now a P90 and I notice a slight performance improvement.
> 
>    We're running on a P100 and typically have 90% idle, except during the 
> news.daily run (which admittedly takes about 7 hours or more).

why so long?  this is typically a clue to me to look at the RSS of expire
and inn (or - easier - see how long the expire itself takes, see
/var/log/news/expire.log, the start-to-end of expire should be no longer
than 20 or 30 minutes MAX, particularly on a fast box).  A shortage of
memory will be immediately apparent because expire will take _forever_.

> > > B) how much RAM?  32 Mb enough?
> > 
> > Memory: 16MB + sizeof(history.pag) * 2MB + numclients * 1MB + numfeeds * 1MB.
> > 
> > "clients" are expected simultaneous nnrp's.  feeds are outbound feeds,
> > innxmit or nntplink, no matter.  sizeof(history.pag) in megabytes.
> 
>    It almost sounds like you developed this forumla before the 
> sharedactive patch meandered its way around.  I'd have agreed with you 
> before (it would say we needed about 56 megs of ram, and we were actually 
> using about 49 during non-expire times), but the sharedactive patch 
> reduces the memory usage from 1.3M to .3M per client (roughly) on our 
> system.  Obviously, the larger your active file, the more benefit you'll 
> achieve from this.  On a 64MB machine, we run with about 28 megs used for 
> cache on average.  This is with between 5 and 20 clients.

The formula (slightly modified) dates from the days of C-news, and is
neither INN- nor FreeBSD-specific.  It is a really good ruler.  FreeBSD
actually requires a little _more_ RAM than the formula suggests, but it's
still very ballpark.  Things like sharedactive are nice, but in reality news
_still_ needs lots of RAM available to cache data, so I might modify that to
say "numclients * 1MB _with_ sharedactive" or "numclients * 2MB _without_".

That is more complex, however, so I just leave my formula alone.  ;-)

> > it will begin to fight for pages with INN, and both your innd and expire
> > processes will slow to a crawl.  You also must factor in memory for other
> > running processes (i.e. clients and feeds), and the OS itself needs some RAM
> > (16MB, let's say, for kernel, cache, scratch, etc).
> 
>    Quite fair.  I think you can squeak by on a bit less than this if 
> you're .. ahh, willing to put up with some burps and slowness, but given 
> that this machine is also going to act as a router -- I agree completely.

> > > C) would separate SCSI busses help?  (I plan to put a second 4.3Gb HD
> > >    in for the rest of the news spool)
> > 
> > Go PCI SCSI if you can.  Also, the more disks, the merrier (I have 14 but
> > then I'm a performance freak).
> 
>   As a side note, be sure to keep the history* files on a separate spool 
> from the rest of the world.  Do the same with the overfiew files if you 
> keep them.  It'll make your life a lot happier.

Keep _everything_ on separate spindles.

> > > D) whose SCSI card has the 'best' performance?
> > 
> > I've had good luck with the AHA3940 and NCR-810 based cards.  The AHA2940
> > should work well too.
> 
>    It's a good performer, though we have occasional stability problems 
> with it.  I think it's more due to one of the drives -- a 9gb micropolis 
> for storing alt.binaries -- than anything else.

I haven't had any problems, but I'm mostly a Seagate shop.  A few Micropolis
drives out at Exec-PC lasted a few months and then died, I specifically
asked that they be replaced with Barracudas and life is good..

> > Pay close attention to the memory advice.  I see so many people try to get
> > by without enough memory.  It doesn't pay.  I run Exec-PC's news operation
> > and they try to squeeze 150-200 nnrp clients onto a box with 128MB RAM.
> > They complain to me that it "takes forever to connect".  I wonder why.  ;-)
> 
>    That's masochism for you. :-)

Actually, it's budget combined with "you can't FIT more than 128MB onto an
ASUS Triton board"  :-(

... Joe

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Greco - Systems Administrator			      jgreco@ns.sol.net
Solaria Public Access UNIX - Milwaukee, WI			   414/546-7968



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