Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 16:05:32 +0800 From: Jov <amutu@amutu.com> To: Mathias Picker <Mathias.Picker@virtual-earth.de> Cc: Pascal Schmid <pascal@lechindianer.de>, FreeBSD Ports <freebsd-ports@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: [HEADSUP] Staging, packaging and more Message-ID: <CADyrUxPVZ9zd4eOsWZosrFwvX5-PHGq4XGHoLC3Jbj%2B4JyfcHw@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <fa14e958-3b95-4983-9230-61a3a9cce2c0@email.android.com> References: <20131003084814.GB99713@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> <524D6059.2000700@FreeBSD.org> <524DD120.4000701@freebsd.org> <20131003203501.GA1371@medusa.sysfault.org> <CAGwOe2Ye2MLz3QpyMW3wyN9ew%2BiNnTETS1oOi_%2B8dPehUcWa0w@mail.gmail.com> <20131004061833.GA1367@medusa.sysfault.org> <20131004063259.GC72453@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> <20131004065753.GV82824@droso.dk> <20131004070158.GE72453@ithaqua.etoilebsd.net> <20131004111256.GC98118@admin.xzibition.com> <CAJ9axoSF2%2BRys6MG078XCEkKEs2kEpVJegGgqFN3b2t2%2BR80kw@mail.gmail.com> <CAE-m3X1Uixj3anuROC3=kjG6j-LadEXMv_V%2BY=SD=SoDmNky1A@mail.gmail.com> <52519F61.6090506@lechindianer.de> <fa14e958-3b95-4983-9230-61a3a9cce2c0@email.android.com>
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+1 Jov blog: http:amutu.com/blog <http://amutu.com/blog>; 2013/10/8 Mathias Picker <Mathias.Picker@virtual-earth.de> > > > > > Pascal Schmid <pascal@lechindianer.de> schrieb: > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >Hash: SHA1 > > > >On 10/06/2013 07:21 PM, Bernhard Fr=F6hlich wrote: > >> On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Ulrich Sp=F6rlein <uqs@freebsd.org> > >wrote: > >>> 2013/10/4 Bryan Drewery <bryan@shatow.net>: > >>>> On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 09:01:58AM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > >>>>> On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 08:57:53AM +0200, Erwin Lansing wrote: > >>>>>> On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 08:32:59AM +0200, Baptiste Daroussin > >wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Please no devel packages. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Seconded. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> What's wrong with devel packages? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It complicates things for developers and custom software on > >FreeBSD. The typical > >>>>>>>> situation that I see on most Linux platforms is a lot of > >confusion by people, why > >>>>>>>> their custom software XYZ does not properly build - the most > >common answer: they > >>>>>>>> forgot to install a tremendous amount of dev packages, > >containing headers, build > >>>>>>>> tools and whatnot. On FreeBSD, you can rely on the fact that if > >you installed e.g. > >>>>>>>> libGL, you can start building your own GL applications without > >the need to install > >>>>>>>> several libGL-dev, libX11-dev, ... packages first. This is > >something, which I > >>>>>>>> personally see as a big plus of the FreeBSD ports system and > >which makes FreeBSD > >>>>>>>> attractive as a development platform. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On the other ends, that makes the package fat for embedded > >systems, that also makes > >>>>>>> some arbitrary runtime conflicts between packages (because they > >both provide the same > >>>>>>> symlink on the .so, while we could live with 2 version at > >runtime), that leads to > >>>>>>> tons of potential issue while building locally, and that makes > >having sometime insane > >>>>>>> issues with dependency tracking. Why having .a, .la, .h etc in > >production servers? It > >>>>>>> could greatly reduce PBI size, etc. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Personnaly I do have no strong opinion in one or another > >direction. Should we be > >>>>>>> nicer with developers? with end users? with embedded world? That > >is the question to > >>>>>>> face to decide if -devel packages is where we want to go or not. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If we chose to go down that path, at least we should chose a > >different name as we've > >>>>>> used the -devel suffix for many years for developmental versions. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I must agree that it is one of the things high on my list of > >things that irritate me > >>>>>> with several Linux distributions but I can see the point for for > >embedded systems as > >>>>>> well. But can't we have both? Create three packages, a default > >full package and split > >>>>>> packages of -bin, -lib, and even -doc. My first though twas to > >make the full package > >>>>>> a meta-package that would install the split packages in the > >background, but that would > >>>>>> probably be confusing for users at the end of the day, so rather > >just have it be a real > >>>>>> package. > >>>>>> > >>>>> I do like that idea very much, and it is easily doable with stage > >:) > >>>> > >>>> +1 to splitting packages for embedded usage. > >>> > >>> -1 for the split, as it will not fix anybody's problem. > >>> > >>> On regular machines, disk space is cheap and having to install more > >packages is just annoying > >>> to users. Think of the time wasted that people are told to apt-get > >libfoo-dev before they can > >>> build anything from github, or similar. > >>> > >>> If you actually *are* space constricted on your tiny embedded > >machine, what the fuck are you > >>> doing with the sqlite database and all the metadata about > >ports/packages anyway? Just rm > >>> /usr/include and /usr/share/doc, /usr/share/man, etc. when building > >your disk image. But you > >>> are doing that already anyway, so this solves no actual problem for > >you. > >>> > >>> My two cents Uli > >> > >> I also don't see why we need to optimize our packages for an embedded > >environment that is > >> usually very customized. Wouldn't it make more sense to provide some > >proper port / packaging > >> options/flags that help to optimize size of the packages without > >touching header files? People > >> could use that flags and poudriere to build their packages together > >with all their other > >> compiler flags and cpu optimisations. > >> > > > >+1 > > > >As far as I can see Daniel Nebdal's approach ("WITH_DEV_FILES" flag, > >and defaulting to "yes") > >sounds promising. > > +1 > > This doesn't change things in the standard case and follows existing > patterns, so I like it, too. > > Mathias > > > > >Pascal > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > >Version: GnuPG v2.0.21 (GNU/Linux) > >Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ > > > >iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJSUZ9hAAoJEAWefonBOgAfDlUP/3117hVdZ6WhrygIGnctSb49 > >V+i0SggAFxXuvFFYlkjexrWFpjMPN2H7vBtR9DVbLNwqb4En+mVj/LVY1ejS9TAQ > >gj/nKlK6HNdVQWQD8qLfzFUAzWwnSBco/rIOiGkOrHuvFSUCTV5gPehoJ+Vg8Qnz > >dyUp5SByePNpY1MGMTJZh9gKWJFtTe8DcanDBCVL65rZf/eOVPyiMwlQK+Fy2AQj > >OQgJxhkWJzvl5V9THsMGiSCzJ+9EMoC620F9WEs3MvO0Ky2zIercFJ2bDaks6CXn > >arNTsqTT1zI0sZNGNQMrnxYtQPgV3oCEAggj4ZOG0FkhmBkxWNOPUyahBUE/V8ds > >tvLvugzVzqeaIJWg3IKDNEfGGh0ZnAMhUakUHyJPDhuCLgb498uwElesmgaSvlky > >eotS4cWGVp2lquuf/xPRRl82K4ciozZi3mttRmrfoznK69p1HJbepCn9maIhFkii > >WqLTjKVkeZ778is8mw8dom/Qb8OEj+XR6Vetq7cLg4Is//zieKzSvMWm7QrW1dAI > >zohAjP+lMP5d3TEmeVqvSZhQ9ticzqGGaW4U7zxxRZ0Y/zxkBwe3cIBEpjTpnW9p > >/a0DJ3JodVBo79N2JheIqweCK9RPn8rOK5HxujnWcJ3jbQAgCxOdLd9iyN6IxOjI > >3pHI9pO++Am9ReFvL/Uy > >=3Dqm+q > >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > >_______________________________________________ > >freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list > >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports > >To unsubscribe, send any mail to > >"freebsd-ports-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-ports-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >
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