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Date:      Thu, 06 Dec 2001 13:12:48 -0800
From:      Greg Shenaut <greg@bogslab.ucdavis.edu>
To:        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: Can TCP changes be put in RELENG_4? 
Message-ID:  <200112062112.fB6LCmI41514@thistle.bogs.org>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 06 Dec 2001 09:42:09 EST." <20011206094209.A60489@ussenterprise.ufp.org> 

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In message <20011206094209.A60489@ussenterprise.ufp.org>, Leo Bicknell cleopede:
>On Thu, Dec 06, 2001 at 06:23:31AM -0800, Terry Lambert wrote:
>> > I'd suggest our target should be a P-III 600 with around 256M of
>> > RAM as what Generic should be tuned for....
>> 
>> Can't.  The static allocations for that much assumed RAM would
>> result in the machine not booting, with the amount of RAM for
>> the page tables alone ~1/4M.  By default, the 120M KVA space
>> mappings are arguably overlarge for small memory machines.
>
>Would result in what machines not booting?  As long as a 64M PC
>can boot (even if it has only 10 Meg free for user apps) that's ok
>in my book.  If we're still trying to boot on 4, 8, or 16 meg
>machines that's just dumb.
>
>As I've said before, there are two types of FreeBSD users.  There
>are "users", who want something to replace windows and who really
>like the Linux distro's with KDE and all that.  These people are
>unlikely to build a kernel, and as time goes by are even less likely
>to know what a kernel is.  They are also likely to have a < 3 year
>old PC, probably that they are dual booting.  Linux recognized this,
>and targest this sort of hardware out-of-the-box.
>
>The second type of user is someone like you, or me, or most of the
>people on this list.  They will build a custom kernel no matter
>how appropriate the default settings.  They will tune things for
>odd application boxes, like IRC and News servers and the like.
>The defaults are virtually irrevelant for these people, provided
>sysinstall can finish.
>
>As far as I'm concerned any machine with < 64M these days falls
>into the second catagory, where someone should have to futz with
>it to make it work.  When 256M DIMMs are $18 we need to get with
>the program.

Speaking as someone with a lab full of older machines, including
some 8MB 386SXs happily humming along under FreeBSD, and no machine
with > 32 MB, I obviously am going to disagree vehemently with this
entire line of argumentation.  (I always build a custom kernel for
my machines, but if you required 64MB or more just to boot the
installation floppy, I would have to go buy RAM just to have a
machine to install the next version on.  Ptui!)

However, I do see the value in making it easier to have a faster,
more memory-intensive kernel, so why not just provide a "turbo
kernel" in the standard root distribution along with the current
"generic kernel"?  Shoot, I think even casual, non kernel-configuring
users might be interested in comparing performance under the two
kernels; plus, having the config file for the turbo kernel available
for perusal in the kernel source would be a big plus in my book.

Greg Shenaut

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