Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:09:45 +0930 From: Matthew Thyer <thyerm@camtech.net.au> To: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au> Cc: Matthew Thyer <Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au>, Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>, current@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 'fatal trap 12' on boot (smp and up) Message-ID: <35959EE1.197BE9D5@camtech.net.au> References: <199806270151.SAA09466@antipodes.cdrom.com>
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I dont know where you lost track of the logic Mike.
I'll type it slower this time:
1) Win95 restart to MS-DOS results in DOS with modified vectors.
2) Win98 restart to MS-DOS results in DOS with modified vectors.
3) Win98 "command line only" boot results in DOS with modified vectors.
4) It's possible that a boot of a DOS floppy made on future versions
of Microsoft products will result in DOS with modified vectors.
Summary) There may be no way of booting cleanly using a versions of
DOS from Microsoft in the future. This is not the case
now - see STOP PRESS below.
STOP PRESS
--- I have just confirmed that you CAN use fbsdboot.exe from a
bootable floppy made with Windows 98. i.e. the vectors in
question are NOT modified.
Conclusion) FreeBSD should not be relying on these vectors being unmodified. Particularly when the broken code in question is going
to become mandatory.
When I say "floppies have been formatted with Windows 98" I obviously
mean "formatted to be bootable." since I was replying to your
suggestion of "boot from a floppy". Dont try to cloud the issue by
stating the obvious "the formatter doesn't matter a damn".
I know personal attack is your style Mike but it's not helpful.
Now I know there will still be many ways of installing FreeBSD.
All I'm saying is we should think twice before making "options VM86"
mandatory while it still contains broken code.
Yes the code is broken while it assumes that the vectors are unmodified.
If we are going down this path, it should be documented that certain
uses of fbsdboot.exe are no longer supported.
Again Mike, I take offense to your personal attacks. You'd make a
lot more friends if you change your style.
Mike Smith wrote:
>
> > This situation has just become more urgent with the release
> > of Windows 98 which I have just installed over the last several
> > hours.
>
> You might have considered that we'd be a long way ahead of you, what
> with betas having been commonly available since the beginning of the
> year.
>
> > Now a command line only boot of Windows 98 (i.e. hitting F8 before
> > Windows boots and choosing command line only from the menu) cannot
> > run fbsdboot.exe without the crash just as I feared.
> >
> > Now the only way to use fbsdboot.exe is to boot off a floppy disk
> > that has been created with Windows 95 or earlier.
> >
> > I suspect that a Windows 98 startup disk wont help but I haven't
> > tried that yet.
> >
> > So there is no way of booting cleanly using a version of DOS from
> > Windows 98 (and beyond probably). Therefore FreeBSD should not
> > be relying on these vectors being unmodified.
>
> I'm sorry, but this conclusion is fallacious. You might just as easily
> suggest that, eg. Windows NT should not rely on these vectors being
> unmodified (it does).
>
> > Soon no one will have Windows 95 or earlier so its going to be
> > pretty hard to install FreeBSD from the CD-ROM.
>
> Actually, all you droids will be running Windows 98 on "PC-98" machines
> (systems certified for Windows 98), all of which are required to
> support the El Torito CDROM boot standard. Naturally, the FreeBSD
> CDROMs are all bootable.
>
> > I'm sorry Mike but your answer "boot from a floppy" wont be any
> > good when everyones floppies have been formatted with Windows 98!
>
> Since the formatter doesn't matter a damn, and since the floppy I was
> referring to is a FreeBSD boot floppy, and since you will still be able
> to make these floppies under Windows 98 (guess whether *we* bothered to
> test with the betas), I don't actually see this as a problem except for
> the hysterical minority that are still unwilling to use any of the
> various perfectly adequate boot managers already in circulation.
>
> Please note that FreeBSD is an _operating_system_, not a Windows
> application. If you insist on corrupting your system's private state
> with another operating system, that's your own problem.
>
> "Doctor, it hurts when I do this."
> "Don't do that."
>
> --
> \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith
> \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au
> \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org
> \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com
>
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--
/=====================================================================\
|Work: Matthew.Thyer@dsto.defence.gov.au | Home: thyerm@camtech.net.au|
\=====================================================================/
"If it is true that our Universe has a zero net value for all conserved
quantities, then it may simply be a fluctuation of the vacuum of some
larger space in which our Universe is imbedded. In answer to the
question of why it happened, I offer the modest proposal that our
Universe is simply one of those things which happen from time to time."
E. P. Tryon from "Nature" Vol.246 Dec.14, 1973
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