Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 11:09:27 +0200 From: Brad Knowles <brad.knowles@skynet.be> To: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog@FreeBSD.org>, Brad Knowles <brad.knowles@skynet.be> Cc: Rahul Siddharthan <rsidd@online.fr>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: English dying out? (was: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c) Message-ID: <p0511170cb9165093c221@[10.0.1.11]> In-Reply-To: <20020526173419.G43084@wantadilla.lemis.com> References: <20020523063222.GA470@lpt.ens.fr> <p0511170eb9127dabc846@[10.0.1.8]> <20020525075741.GC630@foo31-146.visit.se> <p05111701b9153139e9ea@[10.0.1.11]> <20020525131723.GA3092@lpt.ens.fr> <p05111702b9156e964b77@[10.0.1.11]> <20020525181133.GA1210@lpt.ens.fr> <p05111703b915c7110858@[10.0.1.11]> <20020526105823.A43084@wantadilla.lemis.com> <p05111707b9163caa175b@[10.0.1.11]> <20020526173419.G43084@wantadilla.lemis.com>
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At 5:34 PM +0930 2002/05/26, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>> Are they tending to ignore the rules by which the language has
>> "lived" for hundreds of years?
>
> Most definitely. I first went to England 40 years ago. In that time,
> the spoken language has changed dramatically (for the worse AFAIC).
As I said, I conceded this point. However, this is part of the
natural evolution of English. This sort of thing has happened ever
since it first became a recognizable separate language, and will
probably continue until the day it dies.
The same cannot be said for French, because French is rigidly
defined by one and only one institution in the world -- l'Academie
Française. To the degree that people are ignoring l'Academie, is the
degree to which French is dying (if it's not already technically dead
simply by virtue of having a governing body rigidly defining the
language), and passing into an archaic form.
The modern forms of "French" are diverging enough to where they
should no longer be called "French" at all, or even dialects of
French, but instead simply by their dialectic name. So, instead of
Cajun French, Quebecoise French, Wallonian French, etc... we instead
drop the "French" appellation altogether.
> Well, first you live in Belgium, not in France, and the rules are
> different there. Secondly, I contend that the French speaking people
> you mix with are not typical of French society. I don't know too many
> French people who are interested in learning other languages (though
> it's quite possible that the Waloons are different here).
That's French French, and even that is evolving away from l'Academie.
> Agreed. It's exactly this attempt to protect their languages which
> will stop it from dying out.
Right. That's not happening at the same grass-roots level with
French. No, they have l'Academie, which people are tending to ignore
more and more often.
> Yes, but do you see this in English? French is much more widely
> spoken than Flemish, Dutch, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian put
> together. It's not in any danger, and people don't see it as such.
Sorry. You can't lump all forms of French into one basket.
Cajun, Quebecoise, Wallonian, Swiss French, Korean French, they're
all diverging enough from even the French French that is itself
diverging from the Archaic form defined by l'Academie that you can't
just throw them all into the same group any more.
Indeed, this same sort of thing is tending to happen in English
as well, as more and more people around the world learn this language
instead of, or in addition to, any other language(s) that they might
have available to them. All the people in the world who speak,
write, read, and understand English make their own contribution to
the natural evolution of the language.
Something which, by the definition of l'Academie Française, most
definitely does *NOT* occur with "French".
> Again, I think this is partially showing your perspective. The French
> people I know are very proud of their language.
How do they demonstrate this pride? Can they all go into
encyclopedic depths as to the various differences of the way French
is spoken in different parts of Paris, or at least different parts of
France, not to mention the world?
Virtually every Dutch speaker I've ever met knows multiple
dialects of Dutch, can tell you what the differences are, can tell
you where the differences occur on a regional/geographical basis, and
can then leap into comparison and contrast of all the various local
dialects and their differences as compared to other forms of the
language outside their country, as well as other languages inside the
country (e.g., Frisian) and other related languages outside the
country (e.g., German). Same thing for the Flemish speakers I've met.
Could you randomly pick out Frenchmen & Frenchwomen from the
streets and have a reasonable expectation that they could have an
in-depth discussion of this sort with other knowledgeable people
around the world? Do they all tend to be at least amateur language
scholars?
> That depends on what we're talking about. Given that the Western
> European languages have been around in recognizable form for 1000
> years, despite outside influences and occupations, I don't see any
> mismatch of power causing them to go away quickly. Indeed, the
> existence of so many dialects speaks against that.
We're facing an increasing globalization of culture and language,
and this trend does not seem to be slowing down. If anything, it
seems to be accelerating. Languages and cultures will be swept away,
if the people do not recognize their relative position in the world
and adapt in a manner so as to co-exist with this globalization,
while also working to preserve the things that make their language
and culture unique.
The way I see it, the Dutch, Flemish, and Danish people (among
others) see this coming, and are preparing. Contrariwise, the French
people seem to be largely ignorant of what is happening, and of those
who are not ignorant, they just want to stick their heads back into
the sand.
An ant colony will likely survive being run over by a tank,
especially if they are alert and most of them move out of the way.
But Ghu help the ignorant elephant who chooses to be deaf, dumb, and
blind.
> This happens so seldom that it's barely worth mentioning. Which
> language spoken by more than 5000 people has gone extinct in your
> experience?
Choose any native american language that has ever existed. How
many have survived? Why have they survived? What kind of
adaptations in the population were necessary to allow them to
survive? How many of these kinds of adaptations are you seeing in
French-speaking people?
--
Brad Knowles, <brad.knowles@skynet.be>
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.
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