Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:08:27 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com> To: NOC-IPAD <sysadmin@greeves.mfn.org>, "freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG" <freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG>, "'rafie@innocent.com'" <rafie@innocent.com> Subject: Re: Availability & Cost Message-ID: <19980709160827.R15625@freebie.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <01BDAAFF.DF885C40@noc.mfn.org>; from NOC-IPAD on Thu, Jul 09, 1998 at 06:07:36AM -0500 References: <01BDAAFF.DF885C40@noc.mfn.org>
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On Thursday, 9 July 1998 at 6:07:36 -0500, NOC-IPAD wrote:
> On Thursday, July 09, 1998 12:49 AM, Greg Lehey wrote:
>> On Thursday, 9 July 1998 at 5:02:22 -0500, NOC-IPAD wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, July 08, 1998 10:51 PM, Rafie wrote:
>>>>
>>> Use a mirror site! Freebsd's main server is
>>> (/FLAMESUIT ON)
>>> very overloaded,
>>> (/FLAMESUIT OFF)
>>> and on a connection which dies going through MCI's teeny-tiny
>>> little pipe!
>>
>> It's a good thing you have your flame suit on. This advice is
>> completely off the point. What evidence do you have of your claims?
>> I've always had excellent response times from both ftp.FreeBSD.org
>> (really wcarchive.cdrom.com, the world's largest ftp server), and
>> www.FreeBSD.org (really freefall.FreeBSD.org). I've just tried again,
>> and again I had excellent response times.
>
> You may want to note that it is also 0100 here,
Ah. At first I didn't understand what you meant, since your machine
claims it's 6 am. But you're right, and your machine is wrong: it's
just past 1 am
> and at the site (I seem to recall it was in Texas, if not, it is
> *still* not exactly "primetime").
Which site? wcarchive and freefall are both in California.
> I have had nothing but poor response times from the main server, and in
> fact don't even use it any more if I can avoid it. When I see a notice telling
> me that I am user 2990 of 3000, and the response time is cruddy (at best),
> my first thought is the machine. BUT: I have done the requisite traceroutes,
> and as I said, MCI's pipe *stinks*. Nevertheless, as a *user*, I have noticed
> correlations between trivial response times and user count: extreme ones.
Well, obviously the data flow through "the pipe" has an influence.
But don't forget that there isn't just one "pipe". How does this
traceroute compare to yours? This is done from a 33.6 kb/s PPP link
(thus the 120 - 150 ms at the start). You'll notice an additional 250
to 300 ms between Melbourne and Bloomington (across the Pacific), but
after that you can't see any difference.
=== grog@freebie (/dev/ttyp3) ~/src 21 -> traceroute ftp.freebsd.org
traceroute to wcarchive.cdrom.com (209.155.82.18), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 Cont0.way3.Adelaide.telstra.net (139.130.136.129) 126.612 ms 121.440 ms 123.223 ms
2 Ethernet1-0.way1.Adelaide.telstra.net (139.130.237.65) 120.778 ms 166.536 ms 121.019 ms
3 Fddi0-0.way-core1.Adelaide.telstra.net (139.130.237.226) 124.449 ms 136.660 ms 117.788 ms
4 Atm1-0-2.lon-core1.Melbourne.telstra.net (139.130.239.49) 204.012 ms 187.833 ms 212.779 ms
5 Fddi0-0.lon5.Melbourne.telstra.net (139.130.239.231) 186.741 ms 198.724 ms 186.524 ms
6 borderx2-hssi2-0.Bloomington.mci.net (204.70.208.117) 512.888 ms 365.425 ms 391.717 ms
7 core2-fddi-1.Bloomington.mci.net (204.70.208.65) 399.144 ms 398.314 ms 399.935 ms
8 core5.SanFrancisco.mci.net (204.70.4.85) 412.321 ms 407.181 ms 403.930 ms
9 pb-nap.crl.net (198.32.128.20) 432.582 ms 468.760 ms 450.650 ms
10 wcarchive.cdrom.com (209.155.82.18) 427.648 ms 448.495 ms 481.230 ms
=== grog@freebie (/dev/ttyp3) ~/src 27 -> traceroute www.freebsd.org
traceroute to freefall.freebsd.org (204.216.27.21), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 Cont0.way3.Adelaide.telstra.net (139.130.136.129) 114.225 ms 111.452 ms 113.612 ms
2 Ethernet1-0.way1.Adelaide.telstra.net (139.130.237.65) 112.829 ms 128.026 ms 112.574 ms
3 Fddi0-0.way-core1.Adelaide.telstra.net (139.130.237.226) 378.506 ms 112.123 ms 119.001 ms
4 Atm1-0-2.lon-core1.Melbourne.telstra.net (139.130.239.49) 188.224 ms 183.227 ms 182.000 ms
5 Fddi0-0.lon5.Melbourne.telstra.net (139.130.239.231) 194.838 ms 181.111 ms 183.359 ms
6 borderx2-hssi2-0.Bloomington.mci.net (204.70.208.117) 392.282 ms 477.379 ms 409.975 ms
7 core2-fddi-1.Bloomington.mci.net (204.70.208.65) 392.932 ms 397.740 ms 699.439 ms
8 core5.SanFrancisco.mci.net (204.70.4.85) 517.097 ms * 528.594 ms
9 pb-nap.crl.net (198.32.128.20) 415.281 ms 428.576 ms 444.115 ms
10 E0-CRL-SFO-02-E0X0.US.CRL.NET (165.113.55.2) 439.433 ms 422.509 ms 423.711 ms
11 T1-CDROM-00-EX.US.CRL.NET (165.113.118.2) 500.530 ms 442.515 ms 478.396 ms
12 freefall.FreeBSD.ORG (204.216.27.21) 449.795 ms 418.349 ms 458.115 ms
On the other hand, looking at you, we see:
=== grog@freefall (/dev/ttypa) /d/users/grog 7 -> traceroute greeves.mfn.org
traceroute to greeves.mfn.org (204.238.179.3), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 gate-free.cdrom.com (204.216.27.17) 1.430 ms 1.750 ms 1.509 ms
2 R-CRL-SFO-01-EX.US.CRL.NET (165.113.118.1) 5.106 ms 5.749 ms 5.155 ms
3 T3-GW1.F0.US.CRL.NET (165.113.55.1) 5.579 ms 4.675 ms 6.556 ms
4 sl-pr1-stk-a6-0.sprintlink.net (198.32.128.11) 143.383 ms 128.562 ms 162.171 ms
5 sl-bb21-stk-3-2.sprintlink.net (144.232.4.53) 118.951 ms 117.713 ms 116.261 ms
6 sl-bb22-stk-8-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.4.106) 118.210 ms 172.358 ms 118.939 ms
7 sl-bb10-fw-0-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.8.69) 204.716 ms 196.564 ms 208.534 ms
8 * sl-bb10-kc-3-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.8.78) 170.377 ms 177.198 ms
9 sl-gw3-kc-8-0-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.2.50) 241.452 ms 203.534 ms *
10 * sl-dnetsl-1-0-T3.sprintlink.net (144.224.25.14) 227.240 ms 183.518 ms
11 PRIMARY-NET-1.StlsMO.savvis.net (209.16.211.98) 212.433 ms 208.140 ms 177.515 ms
12 dial7.primary.net (205.242.93.252) 183.143 ms 186.067 ms 226.959 ms
13 dial1ill.primary.net (208.16.31.65) 211.860 ms 202.973 ms 203.192 ms
14 * * *
15 * * *
In other words,
1. You don't use MCI at all.
2. Within crl.net, the speeds are fine.
3. There are a lot of dropouts in sprintlink.net, but the speeds
still seem acceptable
4. Your machine doesn't appear to be connected.
I'd like to see your view of this.
> My *last-ever* encounter with this *very overloaded* server was when it took
> me over an hour to (a) get a free port to log in to, and then (b) load a trivial
> (fixit image) via ftp. I have seen that box scream, but only during the wee
> hours of the morning, on weekdays.
I don't doubt that you had this experience, but I very much doubt the
conclusions that you draw from it. I can't remember ever having to
wait for a port on wcarchive, though it's possible. When was this?
Which machine?
> It is unfortunate that the FBSD ppl take these observations as
> personal attacks (as you seem to have done),
Not at all. I'm picking on this one not because I'm upset, but
because it's wrong and will tend to mislead people.
> they are not meant that way. However, your like or dislike of these
> do not invalidate them. When the user count is high, response time
> stinks to high heaven.
As I said at the beginning, you have brought no evidence of this. I
get very good response time.
Here's an example:
$ time ftp ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/archive-info/slow.txt
Connected to wcarchive.cdrom.com.
220 wcarchive.cdrom.com FTP server (Version DG-3.1.11 Wed Jul 1 02:21:57 PDT 1998) ready.
331 Guest login ok, send your email address as password.
230-Welcome to wcarchive - home FTP site for Walnut Creek CDROM.
230-There are currently 2771 users out of 3200 possible.
230-
230-Most of the files in this area are also available on CDROM. You can send
230-email to info@cdrom.com for more information or to order, or visit our Web
230-site at http://www.cdrom.com. For tech support about our products, please
230-email support@cdrom.com. You may also call our toll-free number:
230-1-800-786-9907 or +1-510-674-0783. Please keep in mind that we only offer
230-technical support for our CDROM products and not for the files on our
230-FTP server.
230-
230-This machine is a P6/200 with 1GB of memory & 224GB of disk online.
230-The operating system is FreeBSD. Should you wish to get your own copy of
230-FreeBSD, see the pub/FreeBSD directory, visit http://www.freebsd.org, or
230-mail to info@FreeBSD.org for more information. FreeBSD on CDROM can be
230-ordered using the WEB at http://www.cdrom.com/titles/os/freebsd.htm or by
230-sending email to orders@cdrom.com.
230-
230-Slow downloads? Please see ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/archive-info/slow.txt
230-for more information.
230-
230-100Mbps colocation services provided by CRL Network Services. For more
230-information, please visit http://www.crl.com.
230-
230-Please send mail to ftp-bugs@ftp.cdrom.com if you experience any problems.
230-Please also let us know if there is something we don't have that you think
230-we should!
230-
230 Guest login ok, access restrictions apply.
Remote system type is UNIX.
Using binary mode to transfer files.
200 Type set to I.
250 CWD command successful.
250 CWD command successful.
local: slow.txt remote: slow.txt
200 PORT command successful.
150 Opening BINARY mode data connection for 'slow.txt' (1929 bytes).
226 Transfer complete.
1929 bytes received in 0.35 seconds (5.39 KB/s)
221 Goodbye!
real 0m23.121s
user 0m1.055s
sys 0m0.029s
In other words, from end to end, including setting up and logging in,
we had a delay of 23 seconds. The file itself is worth reading--why
don't you pick it up and tell me how fast you get it.
> Of course, that's one of the main reasons for mirrors in the first
> place. Don't get bent outta shape, just add a box to even the load
> (or deal with it when people say that mirrors are the only way to
> go)...
I frequently find that our Australian mirror is slower than freefall.
Greg
--
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