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Date:      Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:56:45 +0200
From:      Ivo Vachkov <ivo.vachkov@gmail.com>
To:        Jos Backus <jos@catnook.com>
Cc:        Doug Barton <dougb@freebsd.org>, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Importing djb's public domain daemontools?
Message-ID:  <CADrMwxfUQSCABcosWig7j0DShbJZkB9oQO4Rz_6-TyVb4UeEyg@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAETOPp0=6bgVQBWPzQc5QWGLwWtKF-yJEhDfx0pHnbstRH9UOw@mail.gmail.com>
References:  <CAETOPp2Wcww1_fPonru0c6XoX%2BAV_HWoGZKiEMvmY50a5%2ByxRQ@mail.gmail.com> <4F14E291.5090803@FreeBSD.org> <CAETOPp1z0TJecz8kjDvf7trEOS5eogrcqEtDveUYzN=J-SvDNQ@mail.gmail.com> <4F1502CD.90409@FreeBSD.org> <E4B18E7A-74A1-4388-AD79-05DD3E667DAE@bsdimp.com> <CAETOPp0=6bgVQBWPzQc5QWGLwWtKF-yJEhDfx0pHnbstRH9UOw@mail.gmail.com>

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On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:33 PM, Jos Backus <jos@catnook.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Jan 16, 2012, at 10:10 PM, Doug Barton wrote:
> >
> > > On 01/16/2012 19:41, Jos Backus wrote:
> > >> On Jan 16, 2012 6:53 PM, "Doug Barton" <dougb@freebsd.org> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> On 01/16/2012 12:53, Jos Backus wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thoughts?
> > >>>
> > >>> This is already available in ports.
> > >>
> > >> I realize that.
> > >
> > > Good, then we're done. :)
> >
> > Not necessarily...
> >
> > >> If FreeBSD had a solid solution out of the box, all this pidfile
> > hackery in
> > >> the base system wouldn't be necessary.
> > >
> > > We don't do religious wars here. We especially don't do trollbait from
> > > djb acolytes. The "pidfile hackery" that we currently have works just
> > > fine in the vast majority of cases. The fact that it doesn't meet some
> > > people's ideas of architectural purity is totally beside the point.
> >
> > This isn't a religious war.  This is someone coming to us and saying that
> > it might be a good idea to clean up the mess by importing a tiny bit of
> > extra code into the base.  Seems like how we've always done things :)
> >
> > >> I always thought FreeBSD was about
> > >> good engineering. Perpetuating the pidfile mess in the base is not a
> > sign
> > >> of good engineering.
> > >
> > > FreeBSD is about giving people choices. Those who want to use
> > > daemontools can do that.
> > >
> > > And lest people think that I'm just hating on daemontools, I'm not. I
> > > use it for some things. But converting everything in the base to use it
> > > is a non-starter, even if we wanted to import it, which I don't see any
> > > need to do.
> >
> > I'm not convinced it is a non-starter.  I'd fully support Jos if he
> wanted
> > to commit the code and had done the leg work to do it.  I wouldn't
> support
> > just importing the daemontools and leaving it at that.  If that's the
> plan,
> > then leaving it in ports is the best bet.
> >
> > Let's not dismiss this out of hand.
> >
>
> Thanks, Warner.
>
> I'm perfectly willing  to make an effort moving FreeBSD forward in this
> area once we can achieve consensus on what moving forward means. I don't
> care about the implementation so much as having the functionality available
> out of the box. Porting launchd sounds like a good plan.
>
> Jos
>
>
>
Wouldn't it be more logical to first:
1) Define what a modern start/boot/service control system should do?
2) Define technological and architectural constraints?
... and only then jump to "port *this*" kind of discussions ...

I know of at least one successful commercial project to port launchd on
FreeBSD (6.x and 7.x), but still there are also others: initNG, eINIT,
Upstart, Service Management Facility, etc.

I don't want to start another flamewar here, i'm aware of license issues,
dead code, commercial issues and so on, I just want to point out that there
are other options and IMHO the focus should not be on what to port, but
what to develop that suits our needs.



> > Warner
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jos Backus
> jos at catnook.com
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>



-- 
Ivo Vachkov



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