Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2017 21:37:30 +0000 From: blubee blubeeme <gurenchan@gmail.com> To: Matthew Macy <mmacy@nextbsd.org> Cc: Roland Smith <rsmith@xs4all.nl>, "Zane C. B-H." <v.velox@vvelox.net>, x11-list freebsd <freebsd-x11@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: End of year Xorg status rant Message-ID: <CALM2mE==jufHpDoV2saC9E1_MXf%2BgJGVNFUJF3mJM2DHgQgj-g@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <159663a3ce5.1150200c6170891.7342168662165756909@nextbsd.org> References: <20161230163653.54909631@rsbsd.rsb> <15952279f17.e0be0d8c34357.732964216134709731@nextbsd.org> <20161231120453.13adf858@thor.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20161231145143.18e6ac99@rsbsd.rsb> <20161231131150.GA3514@lonesome.com> <20161231160319.1a77a8fd@azsupport.com> <822e64b6a6efa38ad5331e2be3f175f9@vvelox.net> <20170103183149.GA86111@slackbox.erewhon.home> <CALM2mEmmtx%2B%2BP6XCRgie_TGv6c7_zwtDJMX1cQ-guC=CLfdRcw@mail.gmail.com> <15965d3f462.e563526350116.951917747823032795@nextbsd.org> <CALM2mEnmi1LNDmAhcKJTBi8f%2Bb-g2=6Cc4%2BKqTuJSdzhOSc8Fg@mail.gmail.com> <159663a3ce5.1150200c6170891.7342168662165756909@nextbsd.org>
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Well, knowing things like this up front would be helpful or is it just insider knowledge from people who were around at that time this stuff was going on. These are genuine questions I'm asking. There's no reason for any corporation to fund BSD graphics work so I'm not even thinking about that. I doubt there's any funds to pay even a single developer. The more you look around the more it seems like there's a lot more to this issue. I am going to make contributions but I'd like to avoid reinventing the wheel but I also don't want for freebsd to be dependent on things outside its control which seems nuts. Imagine if freebsd moved a large portion of the network stack to their kernel and then was like, that's how it'll be from here on out... Anyways that's neither here nor there. Best, Owen On Wed, Jan 4, 2017, 05:26 Matthew Macy <mmacy@nextbsd.org> wrote: > > > > ---- On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 13:17:47 -0800 blubee blubeeme < > gurenchan@gmail.com> wrote ---- > > I saw a talk that I thought was pretty cool dealing w/ x on linux, > messaged the guy. The conversation went like this: > > Hi Eric > > I watched your talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhO3dHL7GEY > > I am using FreeBSD and wanted to start improving the situation over > here. It seems that with linux putting more of their graphics code into the > kernel and BSD cannot share that code, at least not easily I am trying to > develop a plan to move forward. > > Are you still working on glamor and the accelerated x? Also what about > the Linux KVM that strips x down to just a tiny shell. > > Do you have some time to talk? I'd like to get caught up on the current > situation around these things in order to have a better way to move forward > with graphics on BSD. > > Best,Owen=======blubee blubeeme <gurenchan@gmail.com> writes: > > > > > Hi Eric > > > > > > I watched your talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhO3dHL7GEY > > Although he has made countless valuable contributions to FreeBSD and > open-source graphics in the past, Eric Anholt is reported to have actively > blackballed FreeBSD when he worked at Intel because he so deeply resented > the focus of other developers on making Nvidia's closed-source driver work > on FreeBSD. Anything he says is to be taken with a grain of salt. He is > right in so far as doing *new development* takes a lot of man-hours, which > by definition means a fair amount of corporate sponsorship. There is only > small amounts of intermittent funding for graphics on FreeBSD just to keep > it on life support. > > If you want to positively contribute to this discussion and the community, > I feel strongly that you should focus on enabling *vendor developed* > drivers to work on FreeBSD. Only once we achieve that to our collective > satisfaction can we talk about the bigger picture of adding unique value to > FreeBSD or advancing the state of the art. > > > -M > > > > > I am using FreeBSD and wanted to start improving the situation over > here. > > > It seems that with linux putting more of their graphics code into the > > > kernel and BSD cannot share that code, at least not easily I am > trying to > > > develop a plan to move forward. > > > > BSDs could try to keep porting the Linux kernel code back, which I guess > > a couple of people have been trying, but without many active graphics > > developers the best solution for open source desktops is to switch to > > Linux. It's what I did back when I finally realized that nobody else > > around me cared about open source desktop FreeBSD. > > =======That statement makes me a bit sad but I do understand. People > want to be productive, I moved to freebsd from Linux because it seems Linux > is going in a direction where you do things the way the DE says or you're > in for pain. > > It's going to take work, a lot of it to change things but I'm getting > caught up and I want to improve the graphics stack on BSD systems. > > Can I ping you now and again to ask about some things? > > One thing that is a little annoying is that even though KMS, GEB, etc > are all open since its only Linux most of the implantation is based on the > Linux kernel, this isn't good for BSD since their kernels are different. > > It would be nice if each function would just document what should > happen and leave the implantation up to the driver writers. Does that sound > unreasonable? > > Best, > > Owen > > > > > > =======blubee blubeeme <gurenchan@gmail.com> writes: > > > > > That statement makes me a bit sad but I do understand. People want to > be > > > productive, I moved to freebsd from Linux because it seems Linux is > going > > > in a direction where you do things the way the DE says or you're in > for > > > pain. > > > > > > It's going to take work, a lot of it to change things but I'm getting > > > caught up and I want to improve the graphics stack on BSD systems. > > > > > > Can I ping you now and again to ask about some things? > > > > I'm not interested in participating in discussions of how to help the > > BSDs with graphics. > > =======I understand, thanks for you time and the video presentation. > > Best, > > Owen > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Now, when that's the response from the guys working on graphics for > Linux, would I be wrong to be skeptical of continually "porting" Linux code > to BSD? Does it make sense and do you think your efforts will be > sustainable and easy for someone else to maintain? > > > > > > Best, > > Owen > > > > On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 3:35 AM, Matthew Macy <mmacy@nextbsd.org> wrote: > > > > Before commenting further you should really dig in to what is there > now. See sys/dev/drm2 in 11/12 and drivers/gpu/drm & sys/compat/linuxkpi in > my drm-next branches. > > > > > > > > ---- On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 11:02:57 -0800 blubee blubeeme< > gurenchan@gmail.com> wrote ---- > > I've never liked lines of code as a measure of how good software is. I > like > > challenges. > > > > Best, > > Owen > > > > On Wed, Jan 4, 2017, 02:33 Roland Smith <rsmith@xs4all.nl> wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Jan 03, 2017 at 12:14:54AM -0600, Zane C. B-H. wrote: > > > > On 2016-12-31 09:03, Andrei wrote: > > > > > On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 07:11:51 -0600 > > > > > Mark Linimon <linimon@lonesome.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 02:51:55PM +0300, Beeblebrox via > freebsd-x11 > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > I'm sure the Foundation and developers have been debating > whether to > > > > >> > drop desktop all together > > > > >> > > > > >> I have never heard of any such discussion. > > > > > > Would the Foundation be willing to sponsor a developer to work on X? > I'd be > > > willing to donate toward that. > > > > > > > Honestly this entire thread has been full of WTF. > > > > > > Second that. > > > > > > > I've been using FreeBSD for desktop purposes since like late > 2001/early > > > > 2002. The only issue I've ever had is X -configure does a shit job > of > > > > picking defaults at times, but that is not a FreeBSD issue. > > > > > > I've been using FreeBSD amd64 on desktops and laptops since 2004 > (5.3). > > > > > > Mostly on Radeon GPU's. > > > > > > On the whole, I'd say X works fine. > > > > > > > Yes, X tends to lag a bit behind Linux, > > > > > > Given limited manpower, that is pretty much a given. Especially since > Linux > > > graphics seem (IMO) to be in a permanent state of flux. > > > > > > > but all in all X is a much > > > > better experience on FreeBSD than Linux. One of the big thing that > > > > really stands out between the two is screen tearing is rare on > FreeBSD > > > > compared to Linux. > > > > > > I cannot recall ever seeing screen tearing on FreeBSD. > > > > > > > X works well enough under FreeBSD that I honestly use it for gaming > via > > > > wine. > > > > > > > > Personally I am proud and happy with what our X team has done with > it, > > > > > > Ditto. > > > > > > > especially with Intel chipset support since like 10, making using > it on > > > > a broader number of laptops all that more awesome. In 11 it is > > > > completely goat fragging wiz with the new KMS stuff. <3 > > > > > > The new KMS works fine with my Radeons. > > > > > > Roland > > > -- > > > R.F.Smith > http://rsmith.home.xs4all.nl/ > > > [plain text _non-HTML_ PGP/GnuPG encrypted/signed email much > appreciated] > > > pgp: 5753 3324 1661 B0FE 8D93 FCED 40F6 D5DC A38A 33E0 (keyID: > A38A33E0) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-x11@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-x11 > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-x11-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > >
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