Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 10:56:29 +0200 From: Holger Kipp <hk@alogis.com> To: Antoine BRUNEL <antoinebrunel@yahoo.fr> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org, jan6146@gmail.com, Curtis Penner <curtis.penner2@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Sysinstall is still inadequate after all of these years Message-ID: <20080703085629.GA1590@intserv.int1.b.intern> In-Reply-To: <486C0928.8050607@yahoo.fr> References: <784966050807021123l267aa20en39eb513c12c90ad2@mail.gmail.com> <486BFE3B.3040509@gmail.com> <486C0928.8050607@yahoo.fr>
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Dear Antoine Brunel, I completely 100% agree. Actually I don't see the need for a new sysinstall. It does what it needs to do. I have seen the later RH- and SUSE-Installer, but I don't want them. What's the use of a graphical installer? The only thing endusers might need is the choice of installing all required packages for a Workstation (like X, OpenOffice, KDE with all the whistles (or GNOME if you like), Firefox, etc.). There is a metaport for this already available (or was some time ago), but I have never used it. Usually installation of FreeBSD (for me) is a server installation, so I don't need X or any of the other packages. So from my point of view: - if you think the default sysinstall software needs some improvements, go for it. Apart from fixing real bugs I don't see much need to change this. - don't make a graphical sysinstall thing - at least not as default. it would hurt all sysadmins that install anything remotely. It reminds me of the oracle installer translation from text-based to gui-based (a nightmare if you're not in the same lan). - if you have only one system to install, changing CDs is not a big deal. for current hardware, use a DVD. for mass installations, use fileserver installation (that's what I did, anyway). I am more than happy with sysinstall, have used it for years (starting with 2.2.8 actually) and don't want to see a colorful chingeling whistleblowing hard-to-maintain suitable for all graphics card gui installer. If you need something like this, use PC-BSD, MacOS X or even MS Windows or Linux, I say. That about my useless/worthless (or maybe 2cents) contribution Best regards, Holger Kipp On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 01:03:04AM +0200, Antoine BRUNEL wrote: > I complete what Curtis wrote... > > How many times do you have to install a BSD system ??? even in case of > hell, you can still remove every ports/ package, juste leaving the CSH > and kernel layer, then install what you need again... try to remove the > "glibc" package from Linux (an Howto exists), and enjoy.... > > Compared to Windows / Linux (RedHat or Suse distributions), BSD still > offers a way to finely tune your system depending on your needs, instead > of putting gigabyte software in place, "just in case of", with tons of > windows managers, productivity tools, etc... > > BSD are still "harder" systems compared to other, but with more control > on what happens.... > > In conclusion, I can agree you in that the "sysinstall" soft is a bit > out-dated, but it respond on a need of a BSD philosophy: just installing > a working operating system. All the later tasks have to be done by > "hands". But that's exactly what I wanted when I replaced Windows / > Debian to FreeBSD: having a full control on my system. > > So, just another useless contribution..... > > > Curtis Penner a écrit : > >Let us take this further. > > > >Let's compare BSD to the Linux install solutions. Well, lets not, > >Linux is so far ahead of BSD. Linux understands the user. > > > >BSD has a better overall core OS then the other UNIX flavors. The > >size to capability is outstanding. Once you have the core OS on the > >system it is rock steady and only getting better. The documentation > >is outstanding. It is what others should look to. > > > >So what is wrong? > > > >It doesn't have the native 3rd party applications. Why? Not enough > >users. Why? Because it is hard to get what you want unless you are > >tech savvy. > > > >When you do a system install it is like jumping back to the 80's. The > >front-end is like something from the DOS days. You have to be tech > >savvy to know what you want to do. You have to search out all the > >variations of the applications (tedious and unnecessary) to get a full > >package -- Examples: Postgres, PHP, etc. To add wireless (very common > >these day), you better set aside as much time or more as doing the > >initial install. > > > >Given that the system is rock solid, you think more people would > >develop on it, at least secondarily. But no. Java - go fish. All > >the development environments and features that go with it (Eclipse, > >NetBean, Hibernation, Sturts, and so forth) are painful to get. You > >feel like a rabbit jumping around, and then it most likely doesn't > >work. That is such a turn off. > > > >As for the installs, to get an idea of how to package an install, look > >at the current install packages that are from the Linux side. You > >don't have to copy, but emulate. (Oh, the best out-of-the-box is Apple.) > > > >I have installed Linux, MacOS, HPUX, Solaris, Window (NT, XP, Vista), > >and the BSDs, and I have found the BSDs to be so yesterday that there > >is little in common with the rest. > > > >Porting, so that applications that matter go native, we need more > >installs and more people on the systems. That means more installs to > >laptops. The installs have to be seamless and complete. That mean > >getting more Open Source people and companies to compile and > >distribute BSD. > > > >I am looking forward to a time when installing BSD is point and click > >with not much understanding of what is going on (unless I want to go > >advance and do special custom work). > > > > > >-Curtis > > > > > >Rob Lytle wrote: > >>Hi All, > >> > >>My depressing analysis- YMMV. I've used FreeBSD since 1998. > >> > >>1..Installing the packages off of the menu on the 3 CDROMs is an > >>incredibly > >>tedious miserable process. I had to switch out the CD's around 40 > >>times. > >>If you don't believe me, just mark a whole bunch of random packages > >>after > >>obtaining the 7.0 release CD's, ad then install. Its frustrating and > >>almost > >>like Windows, except its a bit faster as replacing CD's is faster than > >>reboots. > >> > >>2. When installing any given package, if a dependency is already > >>there , > >>the package aborts and then goes though some loop where you have to > >>press > >>OK half a dozen times. Thats insane. > >> > >>I think the CD switching problem would be to install all the packages at > >>once from CD1, then CD2, then CD3. As for the second case, I don't know > >>enough about the infrastructure to suggest any thing except to perhaps > >>comment that code in its entirety or put in switch to bypass already > >>installed dependencies. > >> > >>I wish I knew more about your infrastructure to fix this myself. Is it > >>written in Python? Thats the only language I'm not so rusty at. I've > >>programmed in 5 languages, but that was long ago. I'm old. But > >>someone who > >>knows the system could probably fix it fast. I think this is such an > >>inherent infrastructure problem that has existed so long that a bug > >>report > >>would be futile. > >> > >>Food for thought. Thanks, > >> > >>Rob > >> > >> > >_______________________________________________ > >freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > >To unsubscribe, send any mail to > >"freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
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