Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 13:46:49 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org> To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG (Jordan K. Hubbard) Cc: dennis@etinc.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bragging rights.. Message-ID: <199510232046.NAA11677@phaeton.artisoft.com> In-Reply-To: <308A8B4E.6F9AB114@FreeBSD.org> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Oct 22, 95 11:19:58 am
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> dennis wrote: > > on their switches. If you > > think its the next "great upgrade" you're badly mistaken. > > Why? I don't see where the regional bell's *motivation* is at all > the issue. You're right that their motivation isn't an issue in deployment. But it is in their tarrif structure. I think the investment in 5ESS or better switching technology isn't as pronounced as Dennis would have use believe, or I'd have ISDN and Centrex/Centron services available at my home (I don't; there is a single 5ESS in Tucson, AZ, and much more than that worth of phone lines -- I'm on one of the "alternate" exchanges). > I understand that you're pretty biased against ISDN in favor of your > own Frame Relay solutions, but let's not go trying to adjust reality > to fit the picture you'd like it to be! If people buy ISDN, it will > be a success. So far, people are buying ISDN and all the technical > criticism in the world you may have won't change that fact one iota. The RBOC motivation *is* a factor in this argument. Specifically, the RBOC's are pushing ISDN because they can meter it, even though new equipment costs are much higher (the biggest chunk of what you pay for ISDN is the fact that you are tying up a switch for more than the expected average amount of time, and you are only doing that because of circuit switching). A packet switched network can't be metered based on content destination. The major cost in ISDN, BTW, is the software the RBOC's buy from AT&T. Note that if you live in a US West service area and happen to luck out and live near a 5ESS or better switch and US West happens to license AT&T's software for the thing, you still don't get real ISDN: You get 64/16/16 instead of 64/64/16... unsuitable for most videoconferencing or for 128k bonded rates. US West calls the real ISDN "National ISDN". Check their web page for when it will (not) be available in your area. The problem with Frame Relay is the same problem with ISDN: Inter-LATA routing. Note that for an ISP, the costs of a T1 to a FR cloud are a hell of a lot cheaper than 64 ISDN lines, so your overall cost is going to be reduced by half of the circuit. > I think we're arguing at cross purposes. I'm talking about what > the end-user wants and you're telling me what they SHOULD want and, > in Dennis's ideal world, would want. Sorry, but you clearly > haven't been a user in nearly long enough to have informed > opinions about that anymore - you have a high speed sync serial > "hammer" and now you insist that everything looks like a nail. Well, I'm an end user, and I *don't* want ISDN. I want flat rate Frame Relay, and I'm willing to pay up to 1/4 of what I pay a month to keep a roof over my head. Only no one will sell it to me. I think *you're* talking about what the end user can reasonably expect to be able to purchase from the local RBOC, not what they want. Like Henery Ford, who'd sell you any color of car, as long as it was black. I know 20 other engineers who want it too (they happen to work for the same company)... and that's just my immediate acquantances. And we are hardly the only computer/technology company in the area. We are going to have 1200-2000 Microsoft support people in the area in the next 4 years (200+ this year, then more each year). At Novell, there are at least 60 people I know who wanted it even before I left there. The reason I'm in Arizona instead of Utah is the lack of decent video conference capabilities made a move a job requirement. Now Dennis does have a problem with his market: No one (RBOC) wants to sell wires to go between his cards. But what an end user wants and what all of the parties involved agree to sell are two very different things. When the time comes, I'm going TCI (or Jones InterCable or whatever); basically whoever offers the service first is getting my business, and if it isn't US West (or your favorite RBOC), fine, then screw them. If there's a configuration where I can use one of Dennis' cards, then fine, I'll use it. Otherwise I use whatever I have to. Can you two cut it out? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers.
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