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Date:      Tue, 26 Sep 1995 06:09:42 +0100
From:      Gary Palmer <gary@palmer.demon.co.uk>
To:        Jake Hamby <jehamby@lightside.com>
Cc:        hackers@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: ports startup scripts 
Message-ID:  <2649.812092182@palmer.demon.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 25 Sep 1995 21:40:25 PDT." <Pine.BSF.3.91.950925212311.608A-100000@localhost> 

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In message <Pine.BSF.3.91.950925212311.608A-100000@localhost>, Jake Hamby write
s:
>This is the first time I've responded to this LONG thread, and it'll
>probably be the last, so I'll say what I have to say, and keep quiet for
>the rest of the bickering.  

Same for me. I've skipped over a lot of this thread, for several
reasons (mainly that this is a religous issue and that you won't even
find more than a handful of people agreeing on the good points of the
SVR4 model, let alone what FreeBSD should do).

>When I first saw the SVR4 model on a Solaris box, it was SO confusing; I
>thought it was needlessly complex and difficult to comprehend.  But when I
>first saw the BSD startup scripts I thought they were very disorganized
>and difficult to customize (and as many people have pointed out, almost
>impossible for a script to properly customize without goofing something
>up).

As someone who has ``grown up'' around BSD derrivatives, I still
scratch my head when asked to work on a Solaris box.

I still maintain that neither solution is practical for what we
need. The whole point of this system being implimented on FreeBSD is
to allow ports and packages easy hooks into the system startup
scripts.

There are several problems to be addressed (hopefully in a calm and
practical fashion. Who am I trying to kid? :-) ) The key to this
system working is that you just plop a file in a certain directory,
which will be run when the system is next booted (or shutdown -
WHATEVER). This leads to several problems that I can see:

1) Who issues these script ID numbers? We cannot let people go
   claiming their own at random, as they *WILL* clash (even if we let
   them loose on a number domain with 6 significant digits!)

2) Who is responsible for ensuring that they are in the correct order?
   (e.g. something which loads a LKM is run *AFTER* the script to
   mount /usr is run). This could potentially be nasty, as the
   dependancy tree WILL vary over time (and even from machine to
   machine).

3) How will we cope with local alterations (e.g. someone running
   locally developed s/w which is only for local use)? Do we leave
   large gaps in the numbering to allow for local hacks?

Am I missing something basic here?

>I appreciate your enthusiasm for pushing your idea, and I agree that we
>should try out both implementations, but NOT in an official FreeBSD
>release.  Supporting two different kinds of startup scripts is a
>nightmarish proposal.  In fact, I don't think we should even push for
>these scripts in -current until the majority has agreed on a single
>paradigm, whatever it is.  And, whatever we choose, it should be a good
>enough implementation that the minority will not be totally turned off
>from FreeBSD! :-)  So lets get hacking, and may the best paradigm win!

You've just consigned your proposal to the junk heap. Getting a
majority of people on -hackers to agree on anything is a major battle
on ANY subject, and on this one (where issues are religous and
discussions, err, ``heated'') I'd guess that it's near impossible.

As for what is the ``best paradigm'', who knows. I don't think I've
caught wind of it during these discussions yet.

Gary



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