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Date:      Tue, 9 Oct 2012 15:15:06 -0400
From:      John Baldwin <jhb@freebsd.org>
To:        freebsd-arch@freebsd.org
Cc:        Garrett Cooper <yanegomi@gmail.com>, Devin Teske <dteske@freebsd.org>
Subject:   Re: New Boot Loader Menu
Message-ID:  <201210091515.06082.jhb@freebsd.org>
In-Reply-To: <201210091503.17909.jhb@freebsd.org>
References:  <0655B56F-AD43-402B-872C-568378E650F9@fisglobal.com> <5D193023-90EC-4E8D-9FB9-D8D6468DF6A7@fisglobal.com> <201210091503.17909.jhb@freebsd.org>

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On Tuesday, October 09, 2012 3:03:17 pm John Baldwin wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 09, 2012 2:41:29 pm Devin Teske wrote:
> >=20
> > On Oct 9, 2012, at 11:18 AM, John Baldwin wrote:
> >=20
> > > On Tuesday, October 09, 2012 11:25:19 am Devin Teske wrote:
> > >> =85Re-adding the list=85 (good point)
> > >>=20
> > >> On Oct 9, 2012, at 8:15 AM, Garrett Cooper wrote:
> > >>=20
> > >>> On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Devin Teske <devin.teske@fisglobal.=
com>=20
> wrote:
> > >>>> =85Re-adding the list=85
> > >>>>=20
> > >>>> On Oct 8, 2012, at 12:42 PM, olli hauer wrote:
> > >>>>=20
> > >>>>> ...
> > >>>>>=20
> > >>>>>> You'll also get zero argument out of me that putting "Delete" on-
> screen=20
> > > is not only to-be-avoided for the opposing situation (that some keybo=
ards=20
> may=20
> > > not have a "Delete" but instead "Backspace") but indeed "Delete" is w=
orse=20
> > > because the implied connotation associated with the "Delete" key=20
> (_someone_=20
> > > might be confused into thinking "Delete" will purge the menu from mem=
ory).
> > >>>>>>=20
> > >>>>>> I will play with keycodes.
> > >>>>>>=20
> > >>>>>> Just be aware that currently left arrow CANNOT work. That is a b=
ad=20
> > > suggestion (read why below).
> > >>>>>>=20
> > >>>>>> In Forth, I'm using the "key" primitive which -- rather unfortun=
ately=20
> > > -- produces a zero for "left-arrow", "right-arrow", "up-arrow", "down-
> arrow",=20
> > > "F1", "F2", "F3", "F4", "F5", "F6", "F7", "F8", "F9", and "F10" (note=
: it=20
> > > doesn't catch "F11", "F12", "F13", "F14", "F15", or "F16").
> > >>>>>>=20
> > >>>>>> So all those key options are right-out when it comes to "using t=
hem=20
> > > instead of Backspace" (I simply can't identify in the loader when tho=
se=20
> keys=20
> > > are pressed).
> > >>>>>>=20
> > >>>>>=20
> > >>>>> ...
> > >>>>>=20
> > >>>>> will the space key work for a general back to or up one entry?
> > >>>>> I suspect the space bar has the same keycode on all platforms=20
> > > (intel/appel/ppc/sparc ...)
> > >>>>>=20
> > >>>>> Anyway nice work :)
> > >>>>>=20
> > >>>>=20
> > >>>> By golly, I think olli is on to something here!
> > >>>>=20
> > >>>> What does everybody think about space?
> > >>>>=20
> > >>>> I like it because it's a NICE BIG TARGET (and it's not used by any=
thing=20
> else).
> > >>>=20
> > >>> It was used once upon a time to pause the bootloader countdown=85
> > >>=20
> > >> Well=85 that hasn't *really* been true since r222417 (16+ months ago=
).
> > >=20
> > > Yes, you completely destroyed POLA for users used to hitting various =
keys
> > > to catch the boot loader before it passed by over remote KVMs.
> >=20
> > Wait, what?
> >=20
> > I did no such thing.
> >=20
> > If you had users mashing random keys during the menu, the old functiona=
lity=20
> was to keep the timer rolling while they mashed away.
>=20
> No, not random keys.  Keys like '6' to escape to the loader prompt or '4'=
 to=20
> boot into single user.
>=20
> It's water under the bridge as far as the new menu in 9.0 (and I thought =
that=20
> in that instance renumbering everything might be worth it to make the key=
s=20
> more logical as a one-time hit), but gratuitously changing the mappings o=
f=20
> what specific keys mean is not helpful to users, and based on your reply,=
 you=20
> don't get that at all.  It is the lack of empathy for other use cases tha=
t=20
> most worries me. :(

=46WIW, I hadn't realized / remembered correctly that someone else changed =
the
order in 9.0 and that your original menu changes preserved the bindings.  I
would just like to avoid changing existing key bindings as much as possible
going forward.

=2D-=20
John Baldwin



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