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Date:      Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:25:46 -0800
From:      Studded <Studded@dal.net>
To:        Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au>
Cc:        freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: doc "renovation" project volunteer
Message-ID:  <35118D5A.6CA23B79@dal.net>
References:  <Pine.BSF.3.96.980318181025.10998A-100000@andrsn.stanford.edu> <Pine.BSF.3.95q.980318223140.316G-100000@barnowl.roost.net> <19980319163714.47520@welearn.com.au> <3510DD9B.1591459B@dal.net> <19980319212405.55520@welearn.com.au>

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Sue Blake wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Mar 19, 1998 at 12:55:55AM -0800, Studded wrote:
> 
> > Mine is not the only voice, however I'm coordinating the
> > short term project on updating the FOO.TXT stuff that goes in the root
> > directory of the CD.
> 
> Thank you for clafifying that.

	No problem.

> > > A new mailing list has just been started for newbies. While the
> > > documentation project is important, it is at least as important that
> > > freebsd-newbies list be seen as something _for_ newbies to enjoy rather than
> > > something to keep them either out of the way or doing useful work.
> >
> >       I don't see how -newbies and -doc have any relationship at all. They
> > exist for entirely different purposes.
> 
> Glad to hear you agree.
> 
> > > Having said that, I think that as a newbie I can draw on some of its members
> > > to provide a willing documentation readership to give you experts some
> > > feedback, so long as it doesn't overrun the newbies list in its formative
> > > stages. We're an extremely sensitive lot and easily misinterpret.
> >
> > I'm not sure I understand what you mean. You want to be in charge of
> > picking people to review docs?
> 
> No, I'm saying that since I'm involved in both lists, I will be the
> go-between.

	Errrr... no. At least for me if I have something to say to the newbies
list about docs I will say it directly to them and ask them to respond
directly to me, or to this list as appropriate.

> I was neither talking about being in charge of people nor asking
> for your personal consent.
> 
> There are alternative methods, but the majority of people here would find
> them extremely distasteful.

	What exactly are you referring to?
 
> > Why can't members of the -doc team who want their stuff to be reviewed
> > just post to -newbies and ask for help?
> 
> Because people like you will go in and talk to them the way you have talked
> to me in the past. That is not the best way to obtain cooperation, as you
> must have discovered by now. If newbies can't have a space that is their
> own, where they don't have to suffer being someone's underling, 

	Where did you get the idea that I want to make the people on -newbies
underlings? 

> then the
> list would lose much of its value. We might as well all join -hackers :-)
> hey that'd be fun!!
> 
> > > I have volunteered before to review any documentation that is offered, but
> > > it would be even better to have more than one newbie perspective. What I
> > > propose is to announce in freebsd-newbies when specific help is required,
> > > coordinate that help, and report back here. On the flip side, if newbies say
> > > they're wanting something in particular in the way of docs I can gather
> > > their thoughts together, present them here, and report back to -newbies.
> > > That way you don't get bored or annoyed by incompetence and they don't get
> > > made to feel small or under scrutiny. Of course this doesn't preclude any
> > > other methods, but provides a workable structure.
> >
> >       Hmmmm. I know I'll be on the -newbies list, and I would suggest that
> > anyone else seriously interested in producing documentation to be on and
> > read -newbies and -questions. If we're not paying attention to the needs
> > of the users, our efforts will be considerably less effective. Also,
> > although you are welcome to present  your perspective on what those
> > needs are, channeling input from various users through one person
> > eliminates the chief virtue of soliciting various perspectives.
> 
> I think you misunderstand, Doug, but it doesn't matter much.

	I'm trying to understand what you're saying, but once again I think
we've reached the point where I do understand but I really don't like
what I'm hearing. 

> Those who are interested and have the time are already showing their respect
> by watching silently. You are more than welcome to do so too if you believe
> you have anything to learn from newbies.

	Are you actually telling me that I can listen on -newbies but you don't
want me to talk?

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