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Date:      Thu, 01 Mar 2001 01:32:01 -0800
From:      Cy Schubert - ITSD Open Systems Group <Cy.Schubert@uumail.gov.bc.ca>
To:        Mark Murray <mark@grondar.za>
Cc:        arch@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: FreeBSD sources from 20000' 
Message-ID:  <200103010932.f219WK781344@cwsys.cwsent.com>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:36:49 %2B0200." <200102271136.f1RBa4R12865@gratis.grondar.za> 

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In message <200102271136.f1RBa4R12865@gratis.grondar.za>, Mark Murray 
writes:
> Hello all.
> 
> There was a pretty good response to my initial probe a few days
> ago, so the time comes by to revive the discussion, and to slowly
> begin on the path to an actual solution.
> 
> REMINDER REMINDER - The whole point of this exercise is NOT to
> remove ANYTHING from FreeBSD. Effectively, FreeBSD will become a
> grow-only system with the configuration and installation policies
> placed in the hands of the owners or sysadmins. By "grow-only", I
> do not mean we cannot throw out the trash; it just means that
> arguments such as "please don't remove UUCP" or "please remove the
> r-utils" are largely irrelevant.

You have some good ideas and I agree with you in principle.

Regarding "trash", some of us may consider "r" commands or "UUCP" as 
trash, or more specifically "bloat".  Bloat in the CVS tree doesn't 
necessarily equate to bloat in the resulting tree.  What I may consider 
bloat at work, e.g. "r" commands, v.s. may not be bloat on my network 
at home.  Separate configurations (XML or otherwise) would allow me, 
FreeBSD Inc., my employer, etc., to define FreeBSD what is installed.

From a 11,000 metre (35,000 ft.) level, I think you're on the mark.  As 
we get down to the 1.5 metre (5 ft.) level we may find that the concept 
might not work well in practice as we like, e.g. the line needs to be 
drawn somewhere otherwise we will continually define what we intend to 
do yet not accomplish anything or the project is so big it will take 
400 years to complete.

Please continue to flesh out your idea.  If we (the Royal We) debate 
this objectively, I'm sure we (the Royal We) can develop a plan that 
would satisfy the majority (70-70%) of the FreeBSD community, assuming 
we techies (this is the manager in me speaking) try not to "develop" or 
even "design" it before we define what it is that this is supposed to 
look like.

This is a promising idea, therefore I'd like to suggest that a group of 
people, no more than 5, 10, or even 20,  work on this together.  The 
group will be able to come to consensus more quicly and easily than the 
hundreds that are subscribed to this list, fleshing out a definition 
and subsequently design, which will have considered more angles than 
just one person and be defended by the team of individuals who has 
developed the idea (as opposed to what usually happens on this list) 
when it is presented to this list for final discussion and approval. I 
don't want to see this go down in flames due to arguing about the 
colour of the bikeshed.

So far so good.  I like what I see.


Regards,                         Phone:  (250)387-8437
Cy Schubert                        Fax:  (250)387-5766
Team Leader, Sun/Alpha Team   Internet:  Cy.Schubert@osg.gov.bc.ca
Open Systems Group, ITSD, ISTA
Province of BC



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