Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 21:26:43 -0500 From: "John Chris Wren" <jcwren@jcwren.com> To: "Chip" <chip@wiegand.org>, "Joe & Fhe Barbish" <barbish@a1poweruser.com>, "James Buchanan" <gnudev@ozemail.com.au> Cc: <freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: RE: Software on FreeBSD (Has FBSD4.4 grown up yet) Message-ID: <NDBBKBJHGFJMEMHPOPEGEEEODFAA.jcwren@jcwren.com> In-Reply-To: <0111111807370A.60958@chip.wiegand.org>
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As a long time user of various operating systems, I think this has to be quantifed. If nothing goes wrong, and you're happy with a stock installation, and you want to be able to type 'ls' and see files, a few hours is all it should take. If you aren't sure about how much disk space you should partition to what file system, your video card isn't well supported, or you have any sort of problems, your time investment radiply escalates. This is not something unique to FSDB, Linux, Solaris or Windows, however. There's more to being a user than type 'ls', tho. Under Windows, to install Office, you put the CD in, enter your license key, and sit back and watch it go. If you want to install a ports package, or StarOffice, it takes a bit work. You have to find the docs for setting up the server to use for the ports collection (which brings up the point, why doesn't someone setup a rotating DNS server that tries to use your IP address to route you to the "nearest" server, and handle avoiding sites that are down?), make sure you're root, go to the port collection you want, and 'make install'. OK, not rocket science, but it's not as simple as putting a CD in. Same for StarOffice. You have to get the tarball, untar it, run ./configure, etc. Still not as easy as the CD. What does this mean? Not-Windows is for the user who is willing to take on more of a challenge of software installation that tossing a CD in the drive. Which means my 50 year old mother (who calls me to ask questions like "Is it OK to click <somebutton>, or will I lose my document I'm working on?") won't be running FSDB/Linux/Solaris until it's as easy to use as Windows or Mac OS-X. Here's a for instance for myself. A few days ago I posted a *detailed* request for why I'm getting "socket: No buffers available" messages. No answer. I've done the research. I'm not a FBSD internals guru (and because I have other interests, I don't want to be one). And no one has yet provided an answer (I did get 3 requests for the silly little script that displayed the machine stats for anyone who was willing to help me). So, no, FBSD/Linux isn't as easy as Windows. It may be more "powerful", and perhaps more stable (my NT machine has been up for 134 days, and I abuse it badly. Developing Windows apps, and embedded development toosl, plus CAD layout, and graphics tools, so it doesn't just sit there and play FreeCell), but it's not as easy to use. And that's going to stop a lot of people from using it. Too many people are still scared of "breaking" their PC, and any time it asks them questions they don't know how to answer, or does things they don't want it to, or don't understand, they're going to demand a simple OS. FBSD/Linux is not for the unadventurous. --John (NT4, Win2K, RH6.2, Debian, FSDB 4.4, OS X 10.1, Win98, and RH7.2 machines running here) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Chip > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 21:08 PM > To: Joe & Fhe Barbish; James Buchanan > Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Software on FreeBSD (Has FBSD4.4 grown up yet) > > > I know I may be just feeding the trolls here, but I have to say something. > I think you are way off base. I started using FBSD after running > Redhat and > Mandrake for less than a year, and no previous *nix experiance > whatsoever. I > got the handle on FBSD within a few days, even had apache up and > running my > web site shortly thereafter. At work I have to install Redhat to > dual boot > with win2000 on laptops, usually goes okay, but I sure like the FBSD file > system much better. The whole FBSD file system makes much more > sense than the > Linux file system. > > On Sunday 11 November 2001 08:06, Joe & Fhe Barbish wrote: > > To answer the general intent of your questions, NO FBSD has not grown up > > yet. It is just like all the other Unix like operating systems. Full of > > non-logical command names left over from the beginning. > > Documentation sucks, even the new updated FBSD 4.4 handbook is full of > > information that > > is not true for 4.4. There is no desktop per configured to > replace all the > > command names with meaningful menu options or navigation short > cuts like in > > SCO Unix. FBSD does not have access to most internal modems > because there > > are no drivers available for the majority of the modems on the > market, this > > is also true for all Unix like systems. > > The X desktop of whatever flavor you like can be installed during > the FBSD > installation process, how long's it been since you tried to install FBSD? > The only modems known as problems are winmodems, which are > problems anyway, > winmodems suck on any machine. > > > Bottom line FBSD is a learning playground, that you will have > to work hard > > to gain a understanding of what is going on. FBSD may be a very reliable > > and fast system once you get it up and configured the way you > want it, but > > you had better be willing to invest mega time to get there. For a newbe > > with out any prier Unix background, 200 hours for bare bones out of the > > box, and 1500 hours for full system with mail, www, desktop, > firewall, and > > IP to local PC with access to internet. > > 200 hours? 1500 hours? My word you must be a slow learner. I'm > know rocket > scientist, and it sure as heck didn't take me anywhere near those > kinds of > numbers to learn FreeBSD. > > > You are on your own when it comes > > to technical support, this mailing list is very slow at > producing results > > some times. > > It's a well known fact that if you rtfm first, do a little > research on your > own first, then ask questions with details, you will get plenty of help > quickly. > > > If you are comparing FBSD to Redhat, there is no comparison, > > redhat is head and shoulders above FBSD when it comes to ease > of use. Stick > > with redhat. > > IMHO, FreeBSD is head and shoulders above Redhat (or any Linux) for all > purposes. I use it for my workstation, doing everything I need to do my > business, just as easily as any Linux or Windoze machine. > > > The cheapest way to start with FBSD is to download the FBSD 4.4 handbook > > from the FBSD FTP site and then order the single FBSD install cd in the > > sleeve from > > > http://www.bsdcentral.com/catalog/index.php?cat=113&id=CAF1712FD53 > DB706CF49 > >D 8C2F693CA79 > > > > For $2.95. If the current release is not listed on this web > page, then call > > the sales phone number to request it. If the current release is > for sale in > > the jewel case then they also have the single install cd in the > sleeve for > > $2.95. > > I concur here, that's how I got started with FBSD and Linux, now > I just burn > my own cd's from the iso images whenever a new release comes out. > Also, buy > the books - The Complete FreeBSD and/or The Corporate Networkers Guide to > FreeBSD - They're both excellant ways to get started. > > James, > check out http://www.freebsd.org/ > you will find all your questions answered there. Some friendly > advise - If > you're interested in a new OS of any type you should probably > check out their > web site first before asking such a question on the list. You'll > probably end > up more confused than ever otherwise. > Give it a try, you have nothing to lose, and a whole new world to gain... > Regards, > -- > Chip W > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG > > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of James Buchanan > > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 11:09 AM > > To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > > Subject: Software on FreeBSD > > > > Hi > > > > For a little while I've been using Linux only, instead of Windows. I've > > been doing my Bach in computer science degree working on Windows, so > > unfortunately my > > skills in UNIX are a little rusty. > > > > I was wondering if FreeBSD has an installer program that can detect > > hardware. > > Also, does FreeBSD come with the tools that Linux distributions do, for > > example: > > GCC (C, C++, Java, Fortran), glibc, libstdc++, libpthreads, autoconf, > > automake, > > make, sed, awk, perl, bash, texinfo, lout, latex, ghostscript, > ghostview, > > flex, > > bison, and other GNU tools? Is there an easy to use setup program for X? > > What > > desktops come with FreeBSD, like Gnome or KDE? > > > > I'm a little worried about changing OSes since UNIX especially > seems to be > > pretty hard to use (I mean, for me non-logical names for > things, like TTYs. > > An > > ancient UNIX hang over). > > > > Is FreeBSD at least as user-friendly as a good Linux distribution like > > RedHat? > > Does the manual in the boxed sets tell how to setup a modem and make a > > dialup > > connection to an ISP, and how to connect and disconnect? > > > > Lastly, since FreeBSD seems to be internet oriented, it has > mail programs > > and a > > browser right? Oh, and emacs? > > > > Sorry for the very low level questions. But I really can't > afford to spend > > the > > money until I know what I'm doing and I can work on FreeBSD. > > > > Thanks guys. :) > > > > James > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
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