Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 09:43:49 -0500 From: Karl Denninger <karl@denninger.net> To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ZFS... Message-ID: <65b175f7-40ee-0902-564d-f72a70ce9c35@denninger.net> In-Reply-To: <aab20556-07a4-bc58-d5e8-d2f0366eb77e@sorbs.net> References: <30506b3d-64fb-b327-94ae-d9da522f3a48@sorbs.net> <CAOtMX2gf3AZr1-QOX_6yYQoqE-H%2B8MjOWc=eK1tcwt5M3dCzdw@mail.gmail.com> <56833732-2945-4BD3-95A6-7AF55AB87674@sorbs.net> <3d0f6436-f3d7-6fee-ed81-a24d44223f2f@netfence.it> <17B373DA-4AFC-4D25-B776-0D0DED98B320@sorbs.net> <f868b452-40e9-f2c8-cdee-dde5e53a214c@denninger.net> <aab20556-07a4-bc58-d5e8-d2f0366eb77e@sorbs.net>
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This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms070107030705050701070504 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 4/30/2019 08:38, Michelle Sullivan wrote: > Karl Denninger wrote: >> On 4/30/2019 03:09, Michelle Sullivan wrote: >>> Consider.. >>> >>> If one triggers such a fault on a production server, how can one >>> justify transferring from backup multiple terabytes (or even >>> petabytes now) of data to repair an unmountable/faulted array.... >>> because all backup solutions I know currently would take days if not >>> weeks to restore the sort of store ZFS is touted with supporting. >> Had it happen on a production server a few years back with ZFS.=C2=A0 = The >> *hardware* went insane (disk adapter) and scribbled on *all* of the >> vdevs. >> >> .... >> Time to recover essential functions was ~8 hours (and over 24 >> hours for everything to be restored.) >> > How big was the storage area? > In that specific instance approximately 10Tb in-use.=C2=A0 The working se= t that allowed critical functions to come online (and which got restored first, obviously) was ~3Tb. BTW my personal "primary server" working set is approximately 20Tb.=C2=A0= There is data on that server dating back to 1982 -- yes, data all the way back to systems I owned that ran on a Z-80 processor with 64Kb (not MB) of RAM.=C2=A0 I started running ZFS a fairly long time ago on FreeBSD= -- 9.0, I believe, and have reorganized and upgraded drives over time.=C2=A0= If my storage fails "hard" in a way that I have no local backups available (e.g. building fire, adapter scribbles on drives including not-mounted ones, etc) critical functionality (e.g. email receipt, etc) can be back online in roughly 3-4 hours, assuming the bank is open and I can get to the backup volumes.=C2=A0 A full restore will require more than a day.=C2= =A0 I've tested restore of each individual piece of the backup structure but do not have the hardware available in the building to restore a complete clone.=C2=A0 With the segregated structure of it, however, I'm 100% certa= in it is all restorable.=C2=A0 That's tested regularly -- just to be sure. Now if we get nuked and the bank vault is also destroyed then it's over, but then again I'm probably a burnt piece of charcoal in such a circumstance so that's a risk I accept. When I ran my ISP in the 1990s we had both local copies and vault copies because a "scribbles on disk" failure on a Saturday couldn't be unable to be addressed until Monday morning.=C2=A0 We would have been out of business instantly if that had happened in any situation short of the office with our primary data center burning down.=C2=A0 Incidentally one = of my adapter failures was in exactly the worst possible place for it to occur while running that company -- the adapter on the machine that held our primary authentication and billing database. At the time the best option for "large" working sets was DLT.=C2=A0 Now f= or most purposes it's another disk.=C2=A0 Disks, however, must be re-verifie= d more-frequently than DLT -- MUCH more frequently.=C2=A0 Further, if you h= ave only ONE backup then it cannot be singular (e.g. there must be two or more, whether via mirroring or some other mechanism) on ANY media.=C2=A0 While DLT, for example, has a typical expected 30 year archival life that doesn't mean the ONE tape you have will be readable 30 years later. As data size expands noodling on how you segregate data into read-only, write-very-occasionally and read/write, along with how you handle backups of each component and how, or if, you subdivide those categories for backup purposes becomes quite important.=C2=A0 If performance matters= (and it usually does) then what goes where in what pool (and across pools of similar base storage types) matters too; in my personal working set there is both SSD (all "power-pull safe" drives, which cost more and tend to be somewhat slower than "consumer" SSDs) and spinning rust storage for that exact reason. Note that on this list right now I'm chasing a potential "gotcha" interaction between geli and ZFS that thus far has eluded isolation.=C2=A0= While it has yet to corrupt data the potential is there and the hair on the back of my neck is standing up a bit as a consequence.=C2=A0 It appea= rs to date to either 11.2 or 12.0 and *definitely* is present in 12-STABLE; it was *not* present on 11.1. The price of keeping your data intact is always eternal vigilance. --=20 Karl Denninger karl@denninger.net <mailto:karl@denninger.net> /The Market Ticker/ /[S/MIME encrypted email preferred]/ --------------ms070107030705050701070504 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgMFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC DdgwggagMIIEiKADAgECAhMA5EiKghDOXrvfxYxjITXYDdhIMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMIGL MQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzEQMA4GA1UECAwHRmxvcmlkYTESMBAGA1UEBwwJTmljZXZpbGxlMRkw FwYDVQQKDBBDdWRhIFN5c3RlbXMgTExDMRgwFgYDVQQLDA9DdWRhIFN5c3RlbXMgQ0ExITAf BgNVBAMMGEN1ZGEgU3lzdGVtcyBMTEMgMjAxNyBDQTAeFw0xNzA4MTcxNjQyMTdaFw0yNzA4 MTUxNjQyMTdaMHsxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVTMRAwDgYDVQQIDAdGbG9yaWRhMRkwFwYDVQQKDBBD dWRhIFN5c3RlbXMgTExDMRgwFgYDVQQLDA9DdWRhIFN5c3RlbXMgQ0ExJTAjBgNVBAMMHEN1 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