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Date:      Thu, 05 Feb 2015 11:20:01 -0800
From:      Peter Wemm <peter@wemm.org>
To:        freebsd-current@freebsd.org
Cc:        Konstantin Belousov <kostikbel@gmail.com>, Luigi Rizzo <rizzo@iet.unipi.it>
Subject:   Re: PSA: If you run -current, beware!
Message-ID:  <2082091.ZYtQ1zroo8@overcee.wemm.org>
In-Reply-To: <14095201.eEMelRF1IS@overcee.wemm.org>
References:  <8089702.oYScRm8BTN@overcee.wemm.org> <8273349.HE1luBF2tk@ralph.baldwin.cx> <14095201.eEMelRF1IS@overcee.wemm.org>

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On Thursday, February 05, 2015 11:00:46 AM Peter Wemm wrote:
> On Thursday, February 05, 2015 10:48:54 AM John Baldwin wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 05, 2015 04:22:23 PM Luigi Rizzo wrote:
> > > On Thu, Feb 05, 2015 at 08:21:45AM -0500, John Baldwin wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, February 05, 2015 08:48:33 AM Luigi Rizzo wrote:
> > > ...
> > >=20
> > > > > > > It is fixed (in the proper meaning of the word, not like =
worked
> > > > > > > around,
> > > > > > > covered by paper) by the patch at the end of the mail.
> > > > > > >=20
> > > > > > > We already have a story trying to enable much less ambiti=
ous
> > > > > > > option
> > > > > > > -fno-strict-overflow, see r259045 and the revert in r2594=
22.  I
> > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > see other way than try one more time.  Too many places in=
 kernel
> > > > > > > depend on the correctly wrapping 2-complement arithmetic,=
 among
> > > > > > > others
> > > > > > > are callweel and scheduler.
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Rather than depending on a compiler option, wouldn't it be
> > > > > better/more
> > > > > robust to change ticks to unsigned, which has specified wrapp=
ing
> > > > > behavior?
> > > >=20
> > > > Yes, but non-trivial.  It's also not limited to ticks.  Since t=
he
> > > > compiler
> > > > knows when it would apply these optimizations, it would be nice=
 if it
> > > > could
> > > > warn instead (GCC apparently has a warning, but clang does not)=
.=20
> > > > Having
> > > > people do a manual audit of every signed integer expression in =
the
> > > > tree
> > > > will take a long time.
> > >=20
> > > I think I misunderstood the problem as being limited to ticks,
> > > which is probably only one symptom of a fundamental change in beh=
aviour
> > > of the compiler.
> > > Still, it might be worthwhile start looking at ints that ought to=
 be
> > > implemented as u_int
> >=20
> > I actually agree, I just think we are stuck with -fwrapv in the int=
erval,
> > but it's probably not a short interval.  I think converting ticks t=
o
> > unsigned would be a good first start.
>=20
> For the record, I agree.  However, I suspect that attempts to do so w=
ill
> have a non trivial number of bugs introduced.  We have a track record=
 of
> recurring problems with tcp sequence number space arithmetic and tcp
> timing, partly because the wraparounds happens infrequently.

BTW; anybody working on this will want to run with  kern.hz=3D"100000" =
 in=20
loader.conf (or higher).  Having the clock tick 100 times faster speeds=
 the=20
rollover up from every ~25 days to every ~6 hours.  I don't know what t=
he=20
practical limit is but at some point it will cause sufficient pain due =
to=20
contention that it won't be useful.

=2D-=20
Peter Wemm - peter@wemm.org; peter@FreeBSD.org; peter@yahoo-inc.com; KI=
6FJV
UTF-8: for when a ' or ... just won\342\200\231t do\342\200\246
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