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Fri, 18 Jan 2019 13:28:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trond@fagskolen.gjovik.no) Received: from smtp.fagskolen.gjovik.no (smtp.fagskolen.gjovik.no [IPv6:2001:700:1100:1:200:ff:fe00:b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.fagskolen.gjovik.no", Issuer "Fagskolen i Gj??vik" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7B738F5F1 for <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 13:28:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from trond@fagskolen.gjovik.no) Received: from mail.fig.ol.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.fig.ol.no (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id x0IDSNCv057611 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 14:28:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from trond@fagskolen.gjovik.no) Received: from localhost (trond@localhost) by mail.fig.ol.no (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x0IDSNAF057608 for <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 14:28:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from trond@fagskolen.gjovik.no) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.fig.ol.no: trond owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 14:28:23 +0100 (CET) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Trond_Endrest=F8l?= <Trond.Endrestol@fagskolen.gjovik.no> Sender: Trond.Endrestol@fagskolen.gjovik.no To: FreeBSD <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Samba, ZFS and FreeBSD 12 In-Reply-To: <MWHPR04MB0495E1C03E5EEC9185FB9D24809C0@MWHPR04MB0495.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1901181423130.25281@mail.fig.ol.no> References: <MWHPR04MB049584F7EF43CABFCC80CD08809C0@MWHPR04MB0495.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> <43gzCT0Z19z1ftYt@baobab.bilink.it> <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1901181234130.25281@mail.fig.ol.no> <43gznB6BPpz1ftWc@baobab.bilink.it> <MWHPR04MB0495B3494D87D14342D209EB809C0@MWHPR04MB0495.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1901181327500.25281@mail.fig.ol.no> <MWHPR04MB0495E1C03E5EEC9185FB9D24809C0@MWHPR04MB0495.namprd04.prod.outlook.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.21.9999 (BSF 287 2018-06-16) Organization: Fagskolen Innlandet OpenPGP: url=http://fig.ol.no/~trond/trond.key MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.9 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on mail.fig.ol.no Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions <freebsd-questions.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/options/freebsd-questions>, <mailto:freebsd-questions-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/>; List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-questions-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions>, <mailto:freebsd-questions-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 13:28:27 -0000 On Fri, 18 Jan 2019 13:17-0000, Carmel NY wrote: > On Fri, 18 Jan 2019 13:30:53 +0100 (CET), Trond Endrestøl stated: > > >On Fri, 18 Jan 2019 12:08-0000, Carmel NY wrote: > > > >> On Fri, 18 Jan 2019 12:51:42 +0100, Luciano Mannucci stated: > >> > >> >On Fri, 18 Jan 2019 12:38:20 +0100 (CET) > >> >Trond Endrestøl <Trond.Endrestol@fagskolen.gjovik.no> wrote: > >> > > >> >> The logs keep filling up: > >> >> > >> >> Jan 18 12:36:31 <daemon.err> hostname smbd[2115]: [2019/01/18 > >> >> 12:36:31.841720, > >> >> 0] ../source3/lib/sysquotas_4B.c:148(sys_quotactl_4B) Jan 18 > >> >> 12:36:31 <daemon.err> hostname smbd[2115]: failed to get quota > >> >> for group ID 65534 on .: No such file or directory > >> >Is your zfs pool status OK? what does zpool status say? > >> > > >> >Luciano. > >> > >> # zpool status > >> pool: zroot > >> state: ONLINE > >> status: Some supported features are not enabled on the pool. The > >> pool can still be used, but some features are unavailable. > >> action: Enable all features using 'zpool upgrade'. Once this is done, > >> the pool may no longer be accessible by software that does > >> not support the features. See zpool-features(7) for details. > >> scan: scrub repaired 0 in 0 days 00:10:17 with 0 errors on Fri Dec > >> 21 07:10:14 2018 config: > >> > >> NAME STATE READ WRITE CKSUM > >> zroot ONLINE 0 0 0 > >> ada0p3 ONLINE 0 0 0 > >> > >> errors: No known data errors > > > >I think I solved it. > > > >If Samba is compiled with support for quota, but we don't intend to > >use that feature, we may simply set this global option: > > > >get quota command = /bin/echo 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1024 > > > >A more sophisticated solution is to create /usr/local/sbin/query_quota > >or something similar, and let it adhere to the specification found in > >smb.conf(5): > > > >This parameter should specify the path to a script that queries the > >quota information for the specified user/group for the partition that > >the specified directory is on. > > > >Such a script is being given 3 arguments: > > > >directory > > > >type of query > > > >uid of user or gid of group > > > >The directory is actually mostly just "." - It needs to be treated > >relatively to the current working directory that the script can also > >query. > > > >The type of query can be one of: > > > >1 - user quotas > > > >2 - user default quotas (uid = -1) > > > >3 - group quotas > > > >4 - group default quotas (gid = -1) > > > >This script should print one line as output with spaces between the > >columns. The printed columns should be: > > > >1 - quota flags (0 = no quotas, 1 = quotas enabled, 2 = quotas enabled > >and enforced) > > > >2 - number of currently used blocks > > > >3 - the softlimit number of blocks > > > >4 - the hardlimit number of blocks > > > >5 - currently used number of inodes > > > >6 - the softlimit number of inodes > > > >7 - the hardlimit number of inodes > > > >8 (optional) - the number of bytes in a block(default is 1024) > > > > I just got this back from the Samba mailing list: > > You're getting this due to the error code being returned in errno > not being one that Samba expects. Here's the underlying code: > > ret = quotactl(path, cmd, id, qblk); > if (ret == -1) { > /* ENOTSUP means quota support is not compiled in. > EINVAL > * means that quotas are not configured (commonly). > */ > if (errno != ENOTSUP && errno != EINVAL) { > DEBUG(0, ("failed to %s quota for %s ID %u on > %s: %s\n", (cmd & QCMD(Q_GETQUOTA, 0)) ? "get" : "set", > (cmd & QCMD(0, GRPQUOTA)) ? > "group" : "user", (unsigned)id, path, strerror(errno))); > } > > > Looks like your system is returning ENOENT here in errno, not ENOTSUP > or EINVAL. > > Is this a bug that I should report? Yes, please do. And you may also suggest to the Samba team to enhance this one and other error messages by spelling out which errno value the call returned. Informative error messages are underrated, IMO. -- Trond. From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Jan 18 13:51:39 2019 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BE37149E7CE for <freebsd-questions@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org>; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 13:51:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=1WCu=P2=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be) Received: from orval.bbpf.belspo.be (orval.bbpf.belspo.be [193.191.208.90]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0782690937 for <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 13:51:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=1WCu=P2=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be) Received: from mordor.lan (213.219.145.216.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net [213.219.145.216]) by orval.bbpf.belspo.be (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D0F131D4FC18; Fri, 18 Jan 2019 14:51:30 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 14:51:29 +0100 From: Julien Cigar <julien@perdition.city> To: Shawn Wallbridge <wallbridge@blur.com> Cc: Valeri Galtsev <galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu>, FreeBSD Questions <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Supermicro HBA Message-ID: <20190118135128.GF44618@mordor.lan> References: <20190117103043.GA44618@mordor.lan> <1443717602.966565.1547729422870@mail.yahoo.com> <CALcn87yM3cDrY9Nup-QA21MGZDvetKbEm4nz71BkP5fB9V5HnQ@mail.gmail.com> <82e530db-7cfc-0899-2af1-3972cd5caae6@kicp.uchicago.edu> <CAP=GgsQVneWWs4+ckXPxZo6r+vixqTGfqG4ruKnX=DxWrL4M-g@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bGR76rFJjkSxVeRa" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <CAP=GgsQVneWWs4+ckXPxZo6r+vixqTGfqG4ruKnX=DxWrL4M-g@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.1 (2018-12-01) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 0782690937 X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of SRS0=1WCu=P2=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be designates 193.191.208.90 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=SRS0=1WCu=P2=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.09 / 15.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+mx]; URIBL_RED(3.50)[ixsystems.com.multi.uribl.com]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[mx1.bebif.be,mx2.bebif.be]; HAS_ANON_DOMAIN(0.10)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.77)[-0.775,0]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[julien@perdition.city,SRS0=1WCu=P2=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:2611, ipnet:193.191.192.0/19, country:BE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[julien@perdition.city,SRS0=1WCu=P2=perdition.city=julien@bebif.be]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.996,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[perdition.city]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[90.208.191.193.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.10.0]; IP_SCORE(-0.21)[asn: 2611(-1.03), country: BE(0.00)]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions <freebsd-questions.freebsd.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/options/freebsd-questions>, <mailto:freebsd-questions-request@freebsd.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/>; List-Post: <mailto:freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> List-Help: <mailto:freebsd-questions-request@freebsd.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions>, <mailto:freebsd-questions-request@freebsd.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2019 13:51:39 -0000 --bGR76rFJjkSxVeRa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 10:59:06AM -0800, Shawn Wallbridge wrote: > I have two servers using the AOC-S3008L-L8i (one 400TB+, the other 140TB > (SSD)). They both work great, no real issues performance wise. The firmwa= re > update is a bit of a pain with the supermicro card (make sure you write > down the SAS ID of the card before you do the update), but they work well. >=20 > shawn Thank you all for your feedback :) >=20 > On Thu, Jan 17, 2019, 8:03 AM Valeri Galtsev <galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu > wrote: >=20 > > > > > > On 1/17/19 8:28 AM, Tenzin Lhakhang wrote: > > > If cost is negligible between Supermicro HBA using 3008 controller ve= rsus > > > Broadcom/Avago/LSI card. I'd say opt for the Broadcom card, their > > > support + drivers + firmware downloads is much better than Supermicro= 's > > FTP > > > site. Broadcom keeps whitepapers, archive of all their past released > > > firmwares. > > > > > > Must dos: > > > - Make sure to do hot-add hot-remove disks (with workload). > > > - Make sure to do disk led blink light tests. You will have to use t= he > > > sas3ircu utility, unless you have OS specific utilities to find them. > > > - Perform an fio disk benchmark to get baseline system performance. > > > https://github.com/axboe/fio > > > > > > Issues I've seen: > > > - SuperMicro's FTP site for their firmware doesn't include archive > > copies, > > > only latest. Sometimes latest FW doesn't work nicely and hopefully y= ou > > > have an old FW downloaded prior. > > > - SuperMicro FTP site: ftp://ftp.supermicro.com/Driver/SAS/LSI/ > > > - Sometimes SM HBA's FW and LSI HBA's FW can be used interchangeable = and > > > sometimes not. If you flashed a LSI HBA with SMC firmware, then you = have > > > to add -nossid when flashing using the sas3flash when going back to L= SI > > > firmware. Sometimes it flashes fine and everything looks ok, you see= all > > > the disks, but when you blink disk 4, it blinks disk 1. When you > > > physically remove disk 2, ZFS says disk 3 is gone. It's best to > > thoroughly > > > qualify the system after FW flash. > > > > Thanks, Tenzin, for nice write up! > > > > I only would udd one general thing about Sipermicro. If you get > > Supermicro system board ("motherboard" is common jargon name for system > > board for over couple of decades), then make sure you go with Intel > > CPUs. If you need/prefer AMD CPUs, stay away from Supermicro. They are > > notoriously poorly designing system boards for AMD CPUs. I've seen > > several bad/flaky due to poor design myself (that is for AMD CPUs, not > > Intel); you also can search reports of that on the web. In my book one > > bad is one too many if it is you who got that. I tend to get Tyan ones > > whenever I can, and definitely when I want AMD CPUs. Tyan is in server > > board business since forever, and they never had flops I would hear abo= ut. > > > > Sorry about small rant; I hope this may help someone. > > > > Valeri > > > > > > > > Broadcom page for 9300-8i > > > - > > > > > https://www.broadcom.com/products/storage/host-bus-adapters/sas-9300-8i= #overview > > > - It's a bit hard to understand all the different downloads, but they= 're > > > helpful when you understand the workflow to flash FW and use the sas3= ircu > > > utility. In the latest release, they've bundled all the required > > downloads > > > into the Firmware download. In the past you would have to individual= ly > > > find the different ROM and BIN files. > > > > > > All said, Supermicro HBA when it's working, it works pretty well. I'= ve > > > seen HBA failures, but the systems were usually 5+ years old. > > > - If you have multiple HBAs in a system, record which physical contro= ller > > > is on PCIe slot is the logical controller reported by OS. Otherwise > > when a > > > single HBA fails, it's a bit hard to trace which software HBA is which > > > physical HBA. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Tenzin > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 7:51 AM Paul Pathiakis via freebsd-fs < > > > freebsd-fs@freebsd.org> wrote: > > > > > >> I've used the LSI 3008. I haven't had any issues with it. It is > > >> supported by that driver. (I haven't built a server with one lately) > > >> Yes, avoid all the hardware RAID cards they are unnecessary and a JB= OD > > >> controller with ZFS is a good choice. Make sure it supports the SAS3 > > spec > > >> of 12 Gb/s. That's where the speed is. I found the following as an > > FYI. > > >> Supermicro LSI SAS3008 HBA Review | StorageReview.com - Storage Revi= ews > > >> > > >> > > >> | > > >> | > > >> | > > >> | | | > > >> > > >> | > > >> > > >> | > > >> | > > >> | | > > >> Supermicro LSI SAS3008 HBA Review | StorageReview.com - Storage Revi= ews > > >> > > >> The Supermicro LSI SAS3008 HBAs (which share the same controller as = the > > >> LSI 9300-8i HBAs) are engineered to deli... > > >> | > > >> > > >> | > > >> > > >> | > > >> > > >> > > >> I looked at it as more of a specs education. It looks solid. I've = used > > >> Supermicro without issue in the past. (I just decommissioned my home > > >> server which was Supermicro and has that very card in it.) > > >> There is a lot to consider when using ZFS beyond just the hardware. > > Don't > > >> get me wrong.... I want to have ZFS' baby. :D Just be sure of all = the > > >> nuances of HDD, SSD, Hybrids, how much memory you have to dedicate to > > ZFS > > >> and CPU cores you have. You have to take into consideration all the= ZFS > > >> features you're planning to make use of now and in the future. > > >> Also, are you ever planning on expanding the storage to have an > > additional > > >> JBOD shelf? If so, you may want a card with some external connector= s. > > >> Some of the people at http://www.ixsystems.com have done some serious > > >> research on application specific throughput of ZFS and I believe they > > also > > >> spec out SuperMicro servers too. It comes down to IOPS, raw through= put, > > >> etc. (I'm actually talking to them right now about some very large > > backup > > >> servers that can handle 0.75 PB.... The consideration I have is space > > and > > >> using RAIDZ2 and multiple streams from 10Gb interfaces and serious > > >> compression and deduplication. SO, IOPS not so much, but heavy raw= I/O > > >> and RAID checksum computation and dedup. > > >> There's also things like dedicated SSDs as ZIL and cache to be thoug= ht > > >> about. > > >> So: go up the theoretical OSI layer model and optimize each layer r= ight > > >> through the application layer. :D (I actually find it fun) > > >> I hope this all helps. > > >> P > > >> > > >> On Thursday, January 17, 2019, 4:33:38 AM CST, Julien Cigar > > >> <julien@perdition.city> wrote: > > >> > > >> Hello, > > >> > > >> We are planning to replace some (web) applications servers (currently > > >> running HPE) with Supermicro and the vendor offers the following > > >> choices for the Hardware Raid Controller/HBA 4P part: > > >> > > >> 1) Supermicro AOC-S3008L-L8E, LSI 3008 8 x SATA/SAS III JBOD > > controller, up > > >> to 122 hard drives via expander backplane, PCI-E, ideal for Nexenta/= ZFS > > >> + =E2=82=AC 205,6 > > >> > > >> 2) LSI 9300-4I, SATA/SAS III JBOD controller, tot 256 harde schijven= via > > >> expander backplanes, PCI-E, ideal for Nexenta/ZFS > > >> + =E2=82=AC 214,5 > > >> > > >> 3) LSI MegaRAID 9341-4i bulk, 4 x SATA/SAS 12Gbs internal entry level > > >> hardware RAID, no cache/BBU possible, PCI-e > > >> + =E2=82=AC 177,97 > > >> > > >> 4) LSI MegaRAID 9361-4i 1GB cache, 4 x SATA/SAS 12Gbs internal > > >> hardware RAID, max. 240 hdd using expander backplanes > > >> + =E2=82=AC 401,7 > > >> > > >> 5) LSI 9300-4i4e, SATA/SAS III JBOD controller, 4 x internal, 4 x > > external, > > >> up to 256 hard drives via expander backplane, Nexenta Certified, ide= al > > >> for ZFS, PCI-E > > >> + =E2=82=AC 273,95 > > >> > > >> 6) LSI MegaRAID 9380-4i4e bulk, 8 x SATA/SAS 12Gbs, 4 x external and= 4 x > > >> internal hardware RAID, 1024MB cache, up to 128 hard drives via expa= nder > > >> backplane, support for SSD CacheCade 2.0 write and read caching, > > >> CacheVault support (advised), ideal for high en > > >> + =E2=82=AC 676 > > >> > > >> As the plan is to use ZFS, I was planning to choose the > > >> "Supermicro AOC-S3008L-L8E, LSI 3008" (it looks like it is supported= by > > >> mpr) and I was wondering if anyone has any feedback on it ? Would > > >> another option be a better choice ? > > >> > > >> Thank you! > > >> Julien > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Julien Cigar > > >> Belgian Biodiversity Platform (http://www.biodiversity.be) > > >> PGP fingerprint: EEF9 F697 4B68 D275 7B11 6A25 B2BB 3710 A204 23C0 > > >> No trees were killed in the creation of this message. > > >> However, many electrons were terribly inconvenienced. > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> freebsd-fs@freebsd.org mailing list > > >> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-fs > > >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-fs-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > > > -- > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Valeri Galtsev > > Sr System Administrator > > Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics > > Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics > > University of Chicago > > Phone: 773-702-4247 > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > _______________________________________________ > > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > > freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.o= rg" --=20 Julien Cigar Belgian Biodiversity Platform (http://www.biodiversity.be) PGP fingerprint: EEF9 F697 4B68 D275 7B11 6A25 B2BB 3710 A204 23C0 No trees were killed in the creation of this message. 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