Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 17:40:47 +0200 From: Daniel Nebdal <dnebdal@gmail.com> To: Freddie Cash <fjwcash@gmail.com> Cc: Kevin Oberman <rkoberman@gmail.com>, Bryan Drewery <bdrewery@freebsd.org>, freebsd-ports <freebsd-ports@freebsd.org>, Robert Simmons <rsimmons0@gmail.com>, Kimmo Paasiala <kpaasial@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Growing list of required(ish) ports Message-ID: <CA%2Bt49PLz4-kg-=umrPm5Aad6Wjj=Ud=n=js39EJ-dEzJ60MmrQ@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <CAOjFWZ6EMjsBLHde-x7ZAx1qPmCB%2BvOSyCt-WWkmxtYfJsCJQw@mail.gmail.com> References: <CA%2BQLa9Af3CC=FKMkrnmSL_-frW7ZvCQJ3=q7xkHUz5-3YyE3fQ@mail.gmail.com> <51622F44.3050604@FreeBSD.org> <CA%2BQLa9C5pfcRWrLXEiKzZEvVYd5W=wbN9i5wjtp=m92Fn8oq5w@mail.gmail.com> <CA%2B7WWSfwGBfXRcmc0UJ2ebguq5%2B-pYY82eopicpPcgeKxUCj3A@mail.gmail.com> <CAN6yY1ttmkiV_ns1qfhjd8ROiZ8WfUfmaj%2Ba1N6Ezapj3-QNcw@mail.gmail.com> <CAOjFWZ6EMjsBLHde-x7ZAx1qPmCB%2BvOSyCt-WWkmxtYfJsCJQw@mail.gmail.com>
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On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Freddie Cash <fjwcash@gmail.com> wrote: > Note: I may have messed up the quoting/attribution by snipping things. > > On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:11 PM, Kevin Oberman <rkoberman@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 8:34 PM, Kimmo Paasiala <kpaasial@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > > On the other hand, there are a number of things that I think should be >> > > pulled out of base. Some already have ports, and others would need >> > > ports created. Examples of things to pull out of base are OpenSSL, >> > > Heimdal, OpenSSH, PF, ntpd, ipfilter, bind, sendmail, and others. >> > > Code that is typically way behind the upstream project basically. >> > > >> > >> > I think Bryan already explained the reasons why pkg should not be in >> > base, it's an external tool that is not strictly required to get a bare >> > bones FreeBSD system up and running. Including it in base you create >> > yet another maintainance burden and would slow down the development of >> > the ports/packages management tools. >> >> What people seem to miss is that putting tools into the base system >> strangles the tools. Look at the difficulty we have seen in updating >> openssl. perl was removed from base for exactly that reason. Once something >> is in base, it usually can only be updated on major releases and even then >> it can be very complicated. That is a problem for any dynamically changing >> tool. >> >> I would love to see BIND removed from base, but most of the things you >> listed really are hard to remove. I know that I don't want to try bringing >> up a new install of FreeBSD on a remote system without OpenSSH and that >> pulls in openssl. In the case of many tools, it really turns into a >> bikeshed. But i can see no reason to add any of the new packaging tools >> simply because it is critical that updates be possible far more often than >> is possible for the base system. >> >> Moving OpenSSH, OpenSSL, etc into the ports tree, but making the pkgs > available on the installation media, and having a final hook at the end to > install "required" pkgs, would solve that. There's already a "do you want > to enable OpenSSH daemon" question in the installed, so adding "pkg add > /path/to/openssh-x.y.z.txz" wouldn't be hard. > > Same for bind, sendmail, kerberos, etc. For instance, just add a "daemon > selection screen" for each bit removed from base, to select which ones you > want installed as part of the OS install. > > The hard part comes in finding stub/clients for each item moved to a pkg, > such that a desktop-oriented install is not hampered (ie, SSH client is > usable, DNS lookups can be done, local mail can be generated/delivered, > etc). > > The really hard part is coming up with a migration path for those who > upgrade via source builds. > -- > Freddie Cash > fjwcash@gmail.com There's also the issue that OpenSSH is used for remote administration - being able to do destructive things with pkg without worrying about continued SSH-access is rather relaxing. With danger of entering bikeshed territory, it's one of the things that makes FreeBSD more relaxing than the Linuxes: You can blast every installed package and still be fine - and a working sshd is a part of "fine" for me, since it's kind of a requirement for doing anything else. Admittedly, my personal worst-case scenario is "drag a monitor and keyboard to the other side of the room", so I will probably survive either way. :) -- Daniel Nebdal
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