Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 20:22:04 -0500 From: Valeri Galtsev <galtsev@kicp.uchicago.edu> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Cert Message-ID: <0e7aa839-eecf-37f7-4498-4ecc73f44689@kicp.uchicago.edu> In-Reply-To: <20200528022232.662100a3@archlinux> References: <CY4PR19MB165585A7D4670DC49DB5523AF9B10@CY4PR19MB1655.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <CY4PR19MB1655D45BA9FFA743BE59FDFBF9B10@CY4PR19MB1655.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <CAGBxaXnWSDs_PQJ=F8HQpz-r=AjyA-1=j1o_eBavdwJ7bhhX7Q@mail.gmail.com> <CY4PR19MB1655FA15206EBD85E8E754B2F9B10@CY4PR19MB1655.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <CAGBxaX=4%2BkOb6n38X9qSA5Hc-b9MNgL98zPdAPTw4sa2v=7Mbg@mail.gmail.com> <CY4PR19MB16551E5798F0C344FD2962A5F9B10@CY4PR19MB1655.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <CAGBxaX=s80PW4eyZDsFFYzw2vrXXkvXgn0z_bHf-AHNiRU_8vQ@mail.gmail.com> <CY4PR19MB1655BFB2BEDA186543C3871FF9B10@CY4PR19MB1655.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <CAGBxaXk-yTvN1mCXwSQtjVv4DAkjfMiQP%2BZGfLqExRa7Op6TOw@mail.gmail.com> <CY4PR19MB1655146321E7517E6FC5E7A0F9B10@CY4PR19MB1655.namprd19.prod.outlook.com> <20200527203627.2c9faae5@archlinux> <21722039-a01f-37d3-e035-6be2950485e2@kicp.uchicago.edu> <CAGBxaXm=XtgSvmsgtnqdRZkvOnf_XRo_hV5RCKNy4ApeCtgXMw@mail.gmail.com> <20200528022232.662100a3@archlinux>
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On 5/27/20 7:22 PM, Ralf Mardorf via freebsd-questions wrote: > My reply is intended as an explanation for the OP, not a reply > addressed to Aryeh Friedman. > > On Wed, 27 May 2020 16:48:56 -0400, Aryeh Friedman wrote: >> Will it? Almost all the best IT/programmers I know started with just >> as difficult of a challenge so if the OP wants to do something hard >>from the get go let them. > > Many skilled coders never maintained an official port for a BSD or > Linux distro. Lots of them try to avoid soname issues [1] by not linking > against shared libs of BSD or Linux default installs and they try to > workaround other pitfalls, too. Let alone that some very skilled coders > even don't support BSD or Linux at all. > Ralf, I fully agree with your very instructive presentation. There is one single word you have used that upsets me. Nothing to do with your point, it is just the word itself: "coders". The moment they invented that name to replace the word "programmer" I felt like they purposefully threw away all high level brain work programmers do and downgraded what they do to something like just "writing computer code". Back then when they were teaching us (not training, which would be showing trivial repetitive skills, but teaching, which is developing the ability to create something new). Well, when they were teaching us programming they described the process you will go through creating program as consisting of: 1. Stating problem and deciding withing which restrictions you will make program. 2. Choosing tools (including specific programming languages) 3. Making logical diagram (block diagram), and making sure that covers everything 4. Writing pieces (modules, subroutines,...) and making sure each does what you need it to do 5. Putting modules together, ... 6. And there starts big testing, debugging,... Of course, terminology changed, and my memory may not afford me the same way of putting it as my great teaches did... But now it probably is clear why use of the word "coder" is less than adequately describing what programmers actually do. Unless it is just a bunch of "coders" who write code for some programmer, or project manager... whatever. Just code, no use of brain, task akin writing trivial speech for politician. Just my 2 cents. Valeri > One of the best, if not the best professional EQ is from fab filters. > > "We're not planning support for Linux any time soon. It's a significant > amount of work, and testing is harder than on Windows or Mac because > there are various major Linux distributions, all with subtle > differences. And of course the market is very small." > > https://www.fabfilter.com/forum/2924/linux-support-with-new-vst-sdk?replies=3 > > It's more or less the same for FreeBSD. "Maintaining" even a binary > blob that doesn't link against shared libraries is still time > consuming. > > While unskilled but giftet people might learn better when starting > programming a more challenging software, than when programming > something trivial, maintaining a port that needs to fulfil > the policy of an operating system gains not that much, than first > learning the basics without taking care about port guidelines. > > https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/porters-handbook/book.html > > The porters handbook and similar guidelines of other operating systems > don't help a novice to become familiar with computers and/or a > particular operating system. Trying to become familiar with computers > and FreeBSD by maintaining a port is like hanging wallpaper to > alongside learn how to lay bricks, too. You could do that, but > especially to learn use of computers, it's way better to start > a little bit structured. IOW first lay bricks, than hang the wallpaper. > Starting with the wallpaper is a poorly structured strategy. > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soname > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Valeri Galtsev Sr System Administrator Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics University of Chicago Phone: 773-702-4247 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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