Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:13:49 -0600 From: Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org> To: Jay Nelson <jdn@acp.qiv.com>, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why? (Was: Re: FreeBSD, the follower of Linux ?) Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990831184900.00a3ed40@localhost> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.05.9908311755570.1164-100000@acp.qiv.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990831094953.04670380@localhost>
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At 06:57 PM 8/31/99 -0500, Jay Nelson wrote:
>Excuse me for butting in, but I have some serious questions about the
>whole tenor of the "advocacy" issue and some of the complaints Brett
>is raising.
That's fine and healthy.
>Why should we evangelize? What value is there in selling any Unix OS
>to the Maudie Fricks of the world?
The main value -- both socially and to users in particular -- is that
their computers will be reliable and secure. Daily, I assist users
whose Windows and NT systems have crashed, lost data, been penetrated
and corrupted, etc. We are *all* hurt by this, as it raises the cost of
goods and services and prevents businesses from serving us as well as
possible. On a more individual level, it hurts people by destroying
their work, eating their valuable time, and frustrating instead of
assisting them. UNIX isn't an ideal operating system by any means,
but it can certainly help this situation.
>I can't see Unix on the desktop
>(not even Linux) until some serious and large development effort and
>dollars go into a no-brain interface that Maudie can use out of the
>box. AIX failed at that, Solaris failed at that -- and so has every
>other flavor of unix I know. None of the core teams nor the Linux
>cadre are drawn to that aspect of Unix for the simple fact that Unix
>has not been, nor is likely to be about the desktop and the point and
>click user.
Even Windows really isn't "about" the point-and-click user; it just seems
to be initially. (Ultimately, the user needs to know a bit about what he or
she is doing, just as you need to know where the gas cap is on a car. If you
don't, the car will eventually stop.)
But I am more optimistic about the development of GUIs for UNIX. I think
we will soon see not one but several options which are usable by naive
users.
>Rather, Unix has been about more serious, working systems.
I do not believe that working -- seriously well -- precludes user friendliness.
>I run into
>a large number of old farts in the Unix world who are still bitter
>about Sun abandoning SunOS in favor of SYSVR4. Most have been in the
>trenches and are delighted to know that BSD is still alive and well --
>most of them aren't too thrilled about Linux. Most of them don't deal
>with toy systems, rather 24/7 mission critical systems and have a
>tendency to judge quality systems by how often and when their pagers
>go off. I agree with them.
So do I, in fact.
>The development model that appears to stiffle "creativity" and the
>"sociology" -- both of which are null terms, as far as I can tell, is
>precisely the model under which professional software is developed.
The "sociology" to which ESR refers is not limited to the development
model but embraces both the developers and the user community. In fact,
it has MORE to do with marketing and advocacy than with development.
There is no one model under which "professional software" is
developed.
>It's the model that makes all of the *BSDs a superior choice to the
>haphazard phenomenon lumped under the umbrella of "Linux".
One cannot infer cause and effect here. I am inclined to believe that
it is 20 years of history -- including the development of consistent
conventions and lots of tried and true, time tested code -- that gives
BSD UNIX the edge. And the edge may go away if there aren't lots of
enthusiastic eyeballs poring over the code and making improvements.
>Word is
>spreading and awareness is growing. Patience seems more appropriate
>than zealotry.
The BSDs' market share is currently shrinking, and its mindshare (while
I and others have worked to boost it) is not keeping pace with that of
Linux. Again, it is being squeezed out of its ecological niche. "Patience"
will only result in a continuation of this trend.
>Most professionals are turned away by evangelical zeal
I disagree with this opinion. In my experience, the professionals with
whom I deal will only consider a new operating environment if many people
with whom they come in contact STRONGLY recommend it. The BSDs' lack of
strident evangelism makes it less likely that this will occur. On the
other hand, Linux owes its runaway success to it.
>-- they've seen
>too much in the past, they won't buy it now. Surprisingly, they are
>also skeptical of the availability of source -- they perceive it as an
>invitation to intrusion as has been demonstrated so many times in the
>past with Linux systems.
Because the availability of source is common to both the BSDs and Linux,
this is not a factor that would lead one to choose one over the other.
However, open source is making a good name for itself in the area of
security; on balance, administrators are coming to see it as a "pro"
rather than a "con."
>They are slow to embrace open source at the
>OS level. Robust security and quality, though, makes open source more
>desirable -- but security and quality are most important. If advocacy
>makes us look like Linux, we will be rejected as no better than Linux.
>
>So the real queston is this: it's a long, slow process converting
>professonals,
True. (Though that's not a question. ;-)
>and zealotry won't do it -- quality will.
Advocacy ("zealotry" is your word, not mine) is also essential. Again,
in my experience, repeated word-of-mouth recommendation -- STRONG
recommendation, not a wimpy "oh, yeah, it's the other free UNIX, you might
consider it too" -- is what sways professionals. So do other factors,
such as marketing, certification, support after the sale, etc.
> To whom would
>you rather appeal; the professionals or the desktop crowd?
Both. To frame it as "one or the other" is a false dilemma.
>Sorry for my long winded 4 bits.
No problem. These topics need discussing. Besides, this IS "chat."
--Brett
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