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Date:      Sun, 27 Jan 2013 15:51:44 -0500
From:      "Isaac (.ike) Levy" <ike@blackskyresearch.net>
To:        Warren Block <wblock@wonkity.com>
Cc:        Glen Barber <gjb@FreeBSD.org>, freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.org
Subject:   Re: removing CVS in Handbook Updating and Upgrading chapter
Message-ID:  <1359319922-4118699.16248077.fr0RKpjZd021871@rs149.luxsci.com>
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1301271232560.9759@wonkity.com>
References:  <alpine.BSF.2.00.1301241510470.86451@wonkity.com> <alpine.GSO.1.10.1301251321400.9389@multics.mit.edu> <alpine.BSF.2.00.1301251154450.5025@wonkity.com> <1359241802-3572135.75152325.fr0QN9mrI032137@rs149.luxsci.com> <alpine.BSF.2.00.1301261808410.2537@wonkity.com> <1359270722-3962523.11114096.fr0R7BNq4003267@rs149.luxsci.com> <20130127072036.GL1423@glenbarber.us> <1359272102-5757022.21162222.fr0R7YAiH011169@rs149.luxsci.com> <alpine.BSF.2.00.1301271232560.9759@wonkity.com>

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Warren, I owe you and Glen a drink for dealing with this exasperating =
thread.
I wouldn't continue if I didn't believe new users first installs are =
extremely important,

On Jan 27, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Warren Block wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2013, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote:
>=20
>>>> + ports, cvsup access end-of-lifed Feb 28
>> - great- drop all ports references to cvs/cvsup
>>=20
>>>> - source, cvsup deprecated - no end-of-life date set
>> - please do not drop the current canonical base/src fetch method from =
the handbook!
>>=20
>> However, cvsup is still merely deprecated, without a clear canonical =
replacement, (per notes in my previous email).
>=20
> Understood, but really that is an argument against deprecating CVS, =
not removing it from the docs.
>=20
>> Therefore, I hope I'm being clearly understood that it's cleaner for =
*users* to still fetch *base/src* with cvsup, until:
>>=20
>> - canonical src fetch replacement is in place
>> - whenever cvsup for base/src has an end-of-life date set, (like =
ports does- Feb. 28!)
>>=20
>> At that point, it seems rational that the last references to cvsup =
can disappear.  (The rest of CVS can disappear before that though?)
>=20
> Say we leave CVS references in this chapter, and CVS for source goes =
away in (for example) six months.  Anyone who starts using CVS in that =
time will be forced to switch.  And they would be justifiably upset, =
because they were offered an option that was going away.

I can totally agree, all *CVS* verbiage can be removed from the doc.

I'm certain I don't have to explain to you that cvs(1) and cvsup/csup(1) =
are not at all the same thing.  I may be missing your point, but loads =
of users have used the cvsup for many many years, but many never really =
touched cvs proper.  Kill cvs in doc.

> My personal feeling is that continuing to suggest CVS for -STABLE or =
-CURRENT, even with a deprecation warning, is a disservice to those =
users.


I can certainly see that point.  cusp(1) has a man page, config files, =
etc=85 it's pretty self-evident to admins who want to use it.

--
However, the one place where people are getting tripped up, is the quick =
fetch required before buildworld/buildkernel:

I see nothing but benefit leaving one line before the =
buildworld/makeworld dance:
# csup /usr/share/examples/standard-supfile

And one more line after that,
"cvsup/csup(1) has been deprecated, and will be end-of-lifed when the =
replacement is completed in base"

It's a lot simpler than leading them down the SVN setup path, the state =
it's in today!

> Using CVS is still documented in Appendix A, along with a big =
deprecation warning.


Noted, for sure.

Best,
.ike





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