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Date:      Sat, 2 Jan 1999 12:41:12 +0100
From:      J Wunsch <j@uriah.heep.sax.de>
To:        freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: DEVFS, the time has come...
Message-ID:  <19990102124112.29898@uriah.heep.sax.de>
In-Reply-To: <199901020438.VAA15410@mt.sri.com>; from Nate Williams on Fri, Jan 01, 1999 at 09:38:50PM -0700
References:  <199901020116.RAA03885@dingo.cdrom.com> <199901020312.UAA09044@harmony.village.org> <199901020438.VAA15410@mt.sri.com>

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As Nate Williams wrote:

> To counter Joerg's 'not bothered by non-persistent DEVFS', I'd have to
> say that my experience with Solaris has been less than enthusiastic.
> Note, it only dealt with one device (the tape drive), but it was a pain
> in the butt.

Well, that's funny.  It's not funny that you had problems with
Solaris, but it's funny since in some recent discussion in -core, I
quoted Solaris as an example of a persistent DEVFS that has been
causing me major grief _due to its persistence_.

(Jordan's reply was that the grief is mainly caused by a poor
implementation, not by the fact that they've implemented persistence.
He's probably right on this.)

I can't follow you on this, btw, and have just tried it again.  The
Solaris implementation _is_ persistent, and they store their
persistent data in the root f/s (which I believe is terribly wrong).
I have been able to chmod something, and to reboot, and everything was
as previously.  Their persistence is sticky until you boot -r (or run
drvconfig(1m), and even then, old devices under /devices and /dev are
remembered forever unless you manually rm the entries there (sounds
like AIX, doesn't it? :).  I always found this terrible, since there's
no clean way to tell the system to ``go to hell and restart from
scratch''.

My bad experience with them was an attempt to migrate a disk from an
Ultra 10 machine with a SymBios Logic SCSI card to a Sun AXi OEM-board
based clone with an onboard SymBios Logic.  Although both
architectures are fairly similar, it has proven to be plain impossible
to do this, short of a reboot from a CD-ROM after the migration,
mounting the disk's root f/s, rm -rf'ing all the /dev and /devices
cruft, and copying it over from the dynamically created /dev and
/devices that exist in the CD-ROM environment.

This is a good example of something I'd never like to happen to a
FreeBSD disk.  But again, that's probably more a point to prove that
the Solaris _implementation_ is poor, not that persistence itself is
something that sucks.  But maybe then, it could be that any possible
implementation of a persistent DEVFS sucks similarly. :.)

(After working with some really large server machine, I began to
understand why they did some things the way they did, still I believe
it could have been done better.)

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

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