Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:35:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Neal E. Westfall" <nwestfal@directvinternet.com> To: Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com> Cc: Joshua Lee <yid@softhome.net>, <chat@FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Why did evolution fail? Message-ID: <20020912143905.L69462-100000@Tolstoy.home.lan> In-Reply-To: <3D7FF0C3.910E1F70@mindspring.com>
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On Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > You keep pulling this one out of your rear. I don't see why > > > you keep claiming this, when it doesn't logically follow. If > > > human beings are just machines, there no reason at all that > > > their reasoning would have to be illusionary, rather than real. > > > You have simply made an unsupported statement, as if it were > > > fact, and expected us to be stupid enough to just accept it > > > with no evidence. > > > > When you say, "logically follow", are you saying that you are > > attempting to conform your reasoning processes to some objective > > standard? *What* objective standard? > > The mathematical formalism of symbolic logic. Now you are contradicting what you said earlier. You said that a person *can't* evaluate their reason against an objective standard. Which is it? > > Moreover, *where* does the intentionality come from that allows > > you to conform your reasoning to those objective standards? > > I borrowed it. 8-). It's irrelevant where it comes from, so > long as it *is*. Yup. You borrowed the Christian conception of the mind from the Christian worldview. > > Automatons do not reason, they do not make choices, they do not > > commit intentional acts, they only do what they do, without > > regard to any external standards of logic or ethics. > > Automatons which man has built so far. Oh, so its another faith commitment. > > > "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts". > > > > Yes it is. But it is *your* premises that preclude the possibility > > that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. > > No it doesn't. Look up the word "emergent", and tell me that > again, without being disingenuous. Just admit that your clinging to the concept of "emergence" is a faith commitment. Just once! Or show how it is possible given your naturalism. > > I'm not arguing that the whole is less than the sum of its parts. > > I'm arguing that *your* premises lead to that conclusion. > > Well, you are wrong. My premises lead to emergent properties > and self-organization and the Anthropic Principle and Mach's > Hypothesis. No, your premises *are* those things. > The entire argument can be reduced to symbolic form, and the > result computed. That's why it's so easy for all of us to > pick out your weakest arguments and points, and choose them > to refute. Your attempts to deflect the argument into the > phenomenological realm are transparent to all of us. Once again you are just blowing smoke. That is all the *claims* about the soundness of my arguments are until you actually demonstrate it instead of just asserting it. > > > A "reductio ad absurdum" is a "reduction to absurdity" argument. > > > It works by taking a general argument, and arguing its application > > > to a specific case where it is false, thus demonstrating that the > > > generalization itself is false. > > > > I know what they are, thanks anyways. > > Then do us the favor of not insulting our intelligence by using > rhetorical techniques which you know to be deceitful. Why don't *you* do us all a favor and present a proper refutation instead of just asserting that my arguments are unsound? > > > It's possible to perform a reduction that does not result in an > > > absurdity. This is how it works if the generalization is true. > > > > > > E.g. the argument "all fish are trout" is not proven absurd, if > > > your specific case that you argue to is a rainbow trout instead > > > of a brown trout, but it works if your specific case is a carp. > > > > Interesting, but irrelevent. > > Not irrelevant. Allegory. A symbolic analog of your previous > argument. No, its a strawman, which you are exceptionally skilled at knocking down. > > > The reason the reduction he called absurd *is* absurd is that > > > you drew a conclusion unrelated to the specific case which you > > > were reducing. > > > > You've just contradicted your own explanation of a reductio ad > > absurdum. > > No, I haven't. Not all reductions are reductio ad absurdum; only > reductions which are done properly, according to the rules of > logic. Since yours failed to comply with the rules of logic, > yours is, itself, absurd. Since you have done little to demonstrate that the reductio fails other than asserting it to be the case, it stands. > > Do they reduce a general argument or a specific case? > > Make up your mind. If what you meant was "unrelated to the general > > argument you were reducing" then it seems to me that you need to > > show that this is the case, not just dismiss it out of hand. > > No, actually *you* must show the relationship exists as part of > your argument, for your argument to be valid. I did. You are refusing to admit it, but won't show why the argument fails. > > If you think that human reason can be accounted for by the action of > > the laws of physics on matter, you need to show how human reason > > does not reduce to determinism. > > No, I do not. I merely need to show that human reason can be > accounted for by the action of the laws of physics on matter. Which you *have not done*. > I don't have to show a thing about determinism. Determinism is > irrelvant. It's only you who holds free will to be sacrosanct, > and thus part and parcel with human reason: not me. Are you, or are you not a determinist? > If you want to drag determinism into this, then you need to prove > that it's even relevant to the discussion. I did. The reductio showed that your presuppositions lead to determinism. All the ranting and raving about my reductio being unsound is only that, ranting and raving. > The reason it's relevent to *you* is because you subscribe to the > doctrine of "free will", but you haven't proven that it should be > relevent to *me*. Then you are a determinist? Why all the objections then? > You *assume* that the laws of physics are a clockwork, and that > therefore if human reason *can* be accounted for by the action of > the laws of physics on matter, that this contradicts *your* > doctrine. I think I see why you object so vehemently to the reductio. It's because you agree with the reductio's conclusion. You don't think determinism is absurd at all? If that's the case, why didn't you just say that? > > Given your premises, there is no way you can know whether *your* > > reason is correct and that other people's reasoning is fallacious. > > I can. I can test whether or not one or the other is more predictive. What good would that do? On your view there would be no way to correct one's own reasoning, since it is hardwired into the system. > > It may be fallacious according to the internal laws of logic that > > are pre-programmed in *your* head, but that wouldn't prove anything, > > since you don't know that what is in your head is what is in anybody > > else's. > > Yes, actually, I do know. I rather expect that the mathematics > necessary to prove this is beyond you, however. Oh, that's convenient. > > Moreover, since you think this is a random chance universe, there > > is no way you can ever know if by some random fluke that there is > > not a defect in the programming, causing you to commit logical > > fallacies without your knowledge. > > You don't know whether I believe this is "a random chance universe" > or not. You only know that I have argued for evolution, and certain > aspects of the universe which you have taken, inaappropriately, to > mean that I believe the universe is a clockwork, which is not a > conclusion you can legitimately draw from my statements. *You* are the one who brought up randomness as an out for saving reason. I assumed it based on your own appeal to it. If you would clearly outline exactly what it is that you *do* believe, it would certainly clarify things a bit. > > Moreover, if you arbitrarily insist that everybody reasons the > > same way, you need to give an account of why people make logical > > mistakes. > > Mostly, I've been writing it off to willful ignorance, lately... "Willful ignorance" implies that somebody is being immoral. If that is the case, we are going to need some objective standards of right and wrong, by which you could judge me to be "willfully ignorant." Of course, then you are borrowing (again) from *my* worldview. Ironically, this is exactly the state that the apostle Paul says in Romans 1 that unbelievers are in. They willfully *suppress* the truth about God and themselves in unrighteousness. 8-) Neal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
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