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Date:      Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:47:40 -0400 (EDT)
From:      Thomas David Rivers <rivers@dignus.com>
To:        freebsd-hackers@freefall.cdrom.com, joelh@gnu.org
Subject:   Re: Improvemnet of ln(1).
Message-ID:  <199807130047.UAA15906@lakes.dignus.com>
In-Reply-To: <199807122259.RAA02889@detlev.UUCP>

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> 
> >> I will personally buy a beer (so long as it's not an American beer)
> >> for the first five people who can show me current existance of such a
> >> script.  (In other words, a script written during or after this
> >> discussion doesn't count.)  That said, I sincerely doubt I'll have to
> >> buy a single beer.
> > I don't know if this counts -
> 
> If it's existing code that runs on BSD, whether public or private, it
> counts.  I don't want to break anything.
> 
> Let me make sure I've got all the details.
> 
> > but the source/build management system at SAS would
> > break... technically, it's a program that scans the output.  The
> > code doesn't employ reasonable return-codes for some ungodly
> > reasons, and thus, there are 'scraping scripts' that read through
> > several gigs worth out shell/compiler/utility output and "decide" if
> > the build was successful.
> 
> Ugh.

 Believe me - that's being polite!   The entire setup suffers from
what I call the "bailing" problem.  That is, "we're too busy bailing
water to steer the ship off of the reef into a dock for repairs."

> 
> > Changing the behaviour of ln, as you suggest, would likely break all
> > of that 'log scraping' code. [Who knows how many questionable 'ln'
> > commands are embedded within this spaghetti.]
> 
> By questionable ln commands, you mean ln -s's that link to files that
> don't exist at the time of the command is issued?

 Most assuredly... the intent is for the files to (hopefully)
exist at a future time...  Part of it is builds; part of it build-area
management, etc...

> 
> > Believe me; as I'm the manager of the compiler group; and I am
> > expressly prohibited from changing even the smallest typo in a
> > compiler message; much less adding a new one - for fear of such a
> > calamity.  The argument is that a broken 'script scraper' costs
> > several thousands of developers a couple of days while it's
> > repaired...  we're talking man-years here of wasted time...  I don't
> > buy it myself - but that's the rule I live under.
> 
> Okay.  If it is your own belief that adding a new message would break
> things, then I'll accept that.  (I just want it to be your own belief,
> not something handed down on high that you believe is a product of
> FUD.)

 Actually, it's a combination of both.  My own experience has caused
"thundering hurds" of people to call me up; whereby we beat a hasty
retreat to a previous revision of a compiler.   [The appellation there
was someone elses, not my own :-) ]

 However, I'm convinced a good percentage of the concern was simply FUD.
As far as "break" something - it would inconvenience a large group of 
developers (which costs money.)

> 
> If this code does these things, that is: (1) Creates a symbolic link
> to a file that doesn't exist at the time, and (2) analyzes the output
> of ln's stderr, and (3) would likely break on the addition of a new
> line in the input of [2], then please email me with the name of your
> favorite beer, and the address of the liquor store where you want to
> pick it up.  (Alternatively, if you live in Texas, I may be in your
> area soon, and would be happy to buy you the beer in person.)

 However; you bring up another point.  The code I'm thinking of doesn't
actually run on FreeBSD, it's on HP/UX at the moment.  Only a portion of 
the builds currently run on FreeBSD.... so, the entire discussion is moot :-)   [sorry to drag it out... I didn't realize that at the start.]

 And, unfortunately; I'm in Raleigh NC... and can no longer drink beer...

 But; if you're ever in the area - look me up!

	- Dave Rivers -

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