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Date:      Fri, 24 Apr 2020 10:57:48 +0100
From:      Shamim Shahriar <shamim.shahriar@gmail.com>
To:        freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Why are so many FreeBSD haters on this list? (Troll bait)
Message-ID:  <f5a0170f-a97d-c961-8a4f-95e1c1454dda@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com>
References:  <CAGBxaXk0Abwzk08aUFiNutTpADzAx4btFa0sWjuCoT_Awa=zuQ@mail.gmail.com> <6222c6ca-4709-d800-2d3a-59913bd2cf2a@gmail.com>

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On 24/04/2020 01:09, 令狐月弦 wrote:
> I am on freebsd list but I do like freebsd :) due to it is more light 
> and stable than others, as server running environment. freebsd is may 
> not as good as linux for desktop environment IMO.
>
disclaimer:
this is not a personal response to any particular message. I am merely 
responding to a pattern or generic typical statement. Mostly in line of 
"this is better than that" or "FreeBSD is rubbish as desktop 
environment" or "I have no idea what I am talking about and am very 
proud of it". You have been warned!


now, for the main response

and Linux is not as good as MS Windows
and Windows is not as good as MacOS
and MacOS is not as good as . . .

You can continue the way you prefer. I had been using FreeBSD as my 
primary desktop/laptop environment for many many years now -- with many 
ups and downs, but with much better success than people are led to 
believe. There are times when I need to resort to other OS based system 
primarily because people keep on pushing me to sites/items that I 
personally neither need nor want (Flash, for example) -- but friends and 
enemies are very keen on being the most tech savvy modern "dude" . . . 
(you get the picture).

At work I use both MacOS and Windows. When it comes to security, guess 
which OS I tend to turn to.

Anyway, in my own personal opinion, the inherent problem of the 
statement above (and anything similar) is, people seem to confuse Linux 
with desktop environment -- which it is not! Linux is nothing but just 
the kernel. It is not even the base system -- let alone the userland!

People can complain that KDE does not work on particular hardware, or X 
does not like certain graphics card. That has nothing to do with 
FreeBSD. Anything and everything outside the base system are the fruit 
of the hard labour by people trying to adopt things that were created 
for some other system. The fruit will be mostly sweet, sometimes sour, 
and that is how it should be going forward (IMHO). That is what the 
Ports are offering -- take it or leave it, or alternatively help make it 
better (testing, reporting issues, contributing to codes, donations -- 
many different options to suit most people). FreeBSD is NOT Linux -- 
there are concepts in FreeBSD like base, userland, ports -- something 
worth familiarizing yourselves with in order to have a meaningful 
conversation. FreeBSD boasts to have the best possible documentation -- 
challenge it, read it through, prove it wrong before making assumptions. 
Understanding the differences between other OSs is also essential (no, 
it is NOT optional) unless you are content to make stupid remarks and be 
proud of it.

It is amusing how people put "constructive criticism" without even 
realizing what they are criticizing -- "FreeBSD is not suitable as 
desktop environment" (and similar comments), for example. Well, what do 
you mean by "desktop environment" and is FreeBSD really offering you 
one? Or is your inability to make a third party system play nice on your 
hardware, combined with your lack of understanding of what FreeBSD truly 
is, is forcing you to expose the shortcomings/frustration on public 
forum in shapes and form that makes people think that you hate FreeBSD?

I wonder . . .

Have fun!



> regards.
>
> Aryeh Friedman wrote:
>> It seems like there are more then normal (than in years past) people 
>> on the
>> -questions@ list that for whatever reason just*HATE*  FreeBSD for 
>> technical
>> and non-technical reasons.    If you hate FreeBSD so much why are you on
>> this list and why do you use FreeBSD?  I suspect in many cases they use
>> FreeBSD because it is more stable then their favorite OS (linux).  Hint:
>> that stability is in many cases due to the very reasons you hate FreeBSD
>> (conservative adoption of features for example, not using GPL as much as
>> possible, so called "out-dated" features and lack of "modern" hardware
>> support -- the last two are either subjective or just out right 
>> incorrect).

To answer the original post, IMHO the primary purpose / function of the 
Trolls are to
a. fill the Internet with loads of misleading and false information, so 
that when newcomers are searching online for information, these 
misleading and false information are at the top of the response
b. try to persuade any newcomer from finding the truth and discourage 
adopting to FreeBSD
c. So far, I think this is the only place (FreeBSD mailing lists in 
general) where people are more accommodating, and does not kick people 
out for speaking BS. Despite being member in many Linux lists, I am not 
aware of any Linux list being trolled so much, or accommodating to 
people with different opinion (if anyone know of any, I'll be quite 
happy to take a look at the list archive and accept my mistake).

The second statement above is from my personal experience. In a former 
job, I had serious difficulty in convincing my then line manager as to 
why they should move to FreeBSD -- primarily because his "Tech Savvy 
Friends" and "googling" convinced him that FreeBSD is the most insecure 
OS there can be -- even worse that M$ :P :P :P. At one point I even 
setup a server and invited him to ask his friends to find any flaws -- 
and of course, he refused to indulge me in that pursuit . . .

I'm not saying these are the only reasons, but in my own personal 
opinion, these are at least within top seven.

Best regards.

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