Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:42:33 -0800 From: richard childers <fscked@pacbell.net> To: Neil Blakey-Milner <nbm@mithrandr.moria.org>, Doug Young <dougy@bryden.apana.org.au>, Duke Normandin <01031149@3web.net>, David Johnson <djohnson@acuson.com>, Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org>, mij@osdn.com, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: documentation issues generally Message-ID: <3AB79688.B8113E0C@pacbell.net> References: <046701c0ab3c$c4a66300$847e03cb@apana.org.au> <3AB22989.5B28111C@pacbell.net> <20010319212302.A7883@rapier.smartspace.co.za> <3AB791FA.98332316@pacbell.net>
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--------------6BBDB0B8CB586419372CC6CC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Received: > from mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (mta3-pr) by sims1.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server > sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0GAI009F5AGSC0@sims1.snfc21.pbi.net> for > fscked@sims-ms-daemon; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:12:28 -0800 (PST) > Received: > from guru.mired.org ([65.26.235.186]) by mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server > sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with SMTP id <0GAI00BA5AGAN6@mta3.snfc21.pbi.net> for > fscked@sims1.snfc21.pbi.net; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:12:11 -0800 (PST) > Received: > (qmail 68918 invoked for bounce); Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:12:10 +0000 > Date: > Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:12:10 +0000 > From: > MAILER-DAEMON@guru.mired.org > Subject: > failure notice > To: > fscked@pacbell.net > Message-ID: > <0GAI00BA6AGBN6@mta3.snfc21.pbi.net> > X-Mozilla-Status: > 8001 > X-Mozilla-Status2: > 00000000 > X-UIDL: > 38cdab3800001b50 > > > > > Hi. This is the qmail-send program at guru.mired.org. > I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. > This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. > > : > No such user. > > --- Below this line is a copy of the message. > > Return-Path: > Received: (qmail 68913 invoked by uid 100); 20 Mar 2001 17:12:10 -0000 > Delivered-To: mwm@192.168.1.1 > Received: (qmail 68897 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2001 17:12:09 -0000 > Received: from librarian.mired.org (192.168.1.130) > by guru.mired.org with SMTP; 20 Mar 2001 17:12:09 -0000 > Received: (qmail 59109 invoked by uid 100); 20 Mar 2001 17:12:09 -0000 > Delivered-To: mwm@mired.org > Received: (qmail 59106 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2001 17:12:09 -0000 > Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (206.13.28.240) > by librarian.mired.org with SMTP; 20 Mar 2001 17:12:09 -0000 > Received: from pacbell.net ([63.203.72.87]) > by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) > with ESMTP id <0GAI00BWAAC8HT@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for mwm@mired.org; Tue, > 20 Mar 2001 09:09:45 -0800 (PST) > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:23:06 -0800 > From: richard childers > Subject: Re: documentation issues generally > To: Neil Blakey-Milner > Cc: Doug Young , Duke Normandin <01031149@3web.net>, > David Johnson , Mike Meyer , mij@osdn.com, > freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG > Message-id: <3AB791FA.98332316@pacbell.net> > Organization: The Free State of Dis > MIME-version: 1.0 > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) > Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > X-Accept-Language: en > References: <046701c0ab3c$c4a66300$847e03cb@apana.org.au> > <3AB22989.5B28111C@pacbell.net> <20010319212302.A7883@rapier.smartspace.co.za> > > Neil Blakey-Milner complains: > > "You mean people like myself, Jeroen, Alex, Jim, Nik, and others?" > > "Oh. We suck." > > "Never mind." > > > I don't see it being targeted personally but if you want to take it that way you are > welcome to. I believe in free will ... and full responsibility. > > On the other hand, if you cared about it you'd be subscribed to freebsd-questions and > you wouldn't need people surreptitiously forwarding my messages to you; you would > have spoken up much sooner, in defense of your group; you'd be proactively responding > to negative feedback instead of getting defensive. > > For instance, every time mail gets directed to mwm@mired.org, I get a reply from > Michael's qmail installation telling me that that my mail has been redirected to a > non-existent address and is being returned as undeliverable. This, based on > information and belief, is Mike's best approach to dealing with negative feedback. I > can probably forward the bounce to this message, when I get it, if you don't believe > me. > > If that's the sort of behavior that you think should garner your team my respect ... > think again. > > All that aside, there is some nice FreeBSD documentation out there as well as some > bad stuff and I have no basis for assuming that you personally are the author of any > of the documents I have heard complaints about, at this point in time. > > Apparently you have not received all of the complaints that were voiced about > documentation, if you are only replying to my comments, and no one else's. Whomever > was forwarding my comments to you may have done you a disservice by not providing the > entire exchange; of course, we could argue that you did yourself a disservice by not > acquainting yourself with the topic at hand before commenting, also. > > > -- richard > > > Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > > > On Fri 2001-03-16 (06:56), richard childers wrote: > > > FreeBSD probably could have addressed this, early in its existence, by adapting > > > into the team, a few people whose job was, not to write code, but to work with > > > the developers and to insure that their (often incoherent) documentation was > > > turned into sequential, step-by-step instructions. > > > > You mean people like myself, Jeroen, Alex, Jim, Nik, and others? > > > > Oh. We suck. > > > > Never mind. > > > > Neil > > -- > > Neil Blakey-Milner > > nbm@mithrandr.moria.org > > -- > Richard A. Childers > Senor UNIX Administrator > fscked@pacbell.net (email) > 415.664.6291 (voice/msgs) > > # Providing administrative expertise (not 'damage control') since 1986. > # PGP fingerprint: 7EFF 164A E878 7B04 8E9F 32B6 72C2 D8A2 582C 4AFA > > > richard childers wrote: > Neil Blakey-Milner complains: > > "You mean people like myself, Jeroen, Alex, Jim, Nik, and others?" > > "Oh. We suck." > > "Never mind." > > I don't see it being targeted personally but if you want to take it that way you are > welcome to. I believe in free will ... and full responsibility. > > On the other hand, if you cared about it you'd be subscribed to freebsd-questions and > you wouldn't need people surreptitiously forwarding my messages to you; you would > have spoken up much sooner, in defense of your group; you'd be proactively responding > to negative feedback instead of getting defensive. > > For instance, every time mail gets directed to mwm@mired.org, I get a reply from > Michael's qmail installation telling me that that my mail has been redirected to a > non-existent address and is being returned as undeliverable. This, based on > information and belief, is Mike's best approach to dealing with negative feedback. I > can probably forward the bounce to this message, when I get it, if you don't believe > me. > > If that's the sort of behavior that you think should garner your team my respect ... > think again. > > All that aside, there is some nice FreeBSD documentation out there as well as some > bad stuff and I have no basis for assuming that you personally are the author of any > of the documents I have heard complaints about, at this point in time. > > Apparently you have not received all of the complaints that were voiced about > documentation, if you are only replying to my comments, and no one else's. Whomever > was forwarding my comments to you may have done you a disservice by not providing the > entire exchange; of course, we could argue that you did yourself a disservice by not > acquainting yourself with the topic at hand before commenting, also. > > -- richard > > Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > > > On Fri 2001-03-16 (06:56), richard childers wrote: > > > FreeBSD probably could have addressed this, early in its existence, by adapting > > > into the team, a few people whose job was, not to write code, but to work with > > > the developers and to insure that their (often incoherent) documentation was > > > turned into sequential, step-by-step instructions. > > > > You mean people like myself, Jeroen, Alex, Jim, Nik, and others? > > > > Oh. We suck. > > > > Never mind. > > > > Neil > > -- > > Neil Blakey-Milner > > nbm@mithrandr.moria.org > > -- > Richard A. Childers > Senor UNIX Administrator > fscked@pacbell.net (email) > 415.664.6291 (voice/msgs) > > # Providing administrative expertise (not 'damage control') since 1986. > # PGP fingerprint: 7EFF 164A E878 7B04 8E9F 32B6 72C2 D8A2 582C 4AFA -- Richard A. Childers Senor UNIX Administrator fscked@pacbell.net (email) 415.664.6291 (voice/msgs) # Providing administrative expertise (not 'damage control') since 1986. # PGP fingerprint: 7EFF 164A E878 7B04 8E9F 32B6 72C2 D8A2 582C 4AFA --------------6BBDB0B8CB586419372CC6CC Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> <blockquote TYPE=CITE> <pre>Received: from mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (mta3-pr) by sims1.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0GAI009F5AGSC0@sims1.snfc21.pbi.net> for fscked@sims-ms-daemon; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:12:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from guru.mired.org ([65.26.235.186]) by mta3.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with SMTP id <0GAI00BA5AGAN6@mta3.snfc21.pbi.net> for fscked@sims1.snfc21.pbi.net; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:12:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 68918 invoked for bounce); Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:12:10 +0000 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:12:10 +0000 From: MAILER-DAEMON@guru.mired.org Subject: failure notice To: fscked@pacbell.net Message-ID: <0GAI00BA6AGBN6@mta3.snfc21.pbi.net> X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 38cdab3800001b50 Hi. This is the qmail-send program at guru.mired.org. I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. <mwm-bounce@localhost>: No such user. --- Below this line is a copy of the message. Return-Path: <fscked@pacbell.net> Received: (qmail 68913 invoked by uid 100); 20 Mar 2001 17:12:10 -0000 Delivered-To: mwm@192.168.1.1 Received: (qmail 68897 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2001 17:12:09 -0000 Received: from librarian.mired.org (192.168.1.130) by guru.mired.org with SMTP; 20 Mar 2001 17:12:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 59109 invoked by uid 100); 20 Mar 2001 17:12:09 -0000 Delivered-To: mwm@mired.org Received: (qmail 59106 invoked from network); 20 Mar 2001 17:12:09 -0000 Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (206.13.28.240) by librarian.mired.org with SMTP; 20 Mar 2001 17:12:09 -0000 Received: from pacbell.net ([63.203.72.87]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0GAI00BWAAC8HT@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for mwm@mired.org; Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:09:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 09:23:06 -0800 From: richard childers <fscked@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: documentation issues generally To: Neil Blakey-Milner <nbm@mithrandr.moria.org> Cc: Doug Young <dougy@bryden.apana.org.au>, Duke Normandin <01031149@3web.net>, David Johnson <djohnson@acuson.com>, Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org>, mij@osdn.com, freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: <3AB791FA.98332316@pacbell.net> Organization: The Free State of Dis MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <046701c0ab3c$c4a66300$847e03cb@apana.org.au> <3AB22989.5B28111C@pacbell.net> <20010319212302.A7883@rapier.smartspace.co.za> Neil Blakey-Milner complains: "You mean people like myself, Jeroen, Alex, Jim, Nik, and others?" "Oh. We suck." "Never mind." I don't see it being targeted personally but if you want to take it that way you are welcome to. I believe in free will ... and full responsibility. On the other hand, if you cared about it you'd be subscribed to freebsd-questions and you wouldn't need people surreptitiously forwarding my messages to you; you would have spoken up much sooner, in defense of your group; you'd be proactively responding to negative feedback instead of getting defensive. For instance, every time mail gets directed to mwm@mired.org, I get a reply from Michael's qmail installation telling me that that my mail has been redirected to a non-existent address and is being returned as undeliverable. This, based on information and belief, is Mike's best approach to dealing with negative feedback. I can probably forward the bounce to this message, when I get it, if you don't believe me. If that's the sort of behavior that you think should garner your team my respect ... think again. All that aside, there is some nice FreeBSD documentation out there as well as some bad stuff and I have no basis for assuming that you personally are the author of any of the documents I have heard complaints about, at this point in time. Apparently you have not received all of the complaints that were voiced about documentation, if you are only replying to my comments, and no one else's. Whomever was forwarding my comments to you may have done you a disservice by not providing the entire exchange; of course, we could argue that you did yourself a disservice by not acquainting yourself with the topic at hand before commenting, also. -- richard Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > On Fri 2001-03-16 (06:56), richard childers wrote: > > FreeBSD probably could have addressed this, early in its existence, by adapting > > into the team, a few people whose job was, not to write code, but to work with > > the developers and to insure that their (often incoherent) documentation was > > turned into sequential, step-by-step instructions. > > You mean people like myself, Jeroen, Alex, Jim, Nik, and others? > > Oh. We suck. > > Never mind. > > Neil > -- > Neil Blakey-Milner > nbm@mithrandr.moria.org -- Richard A. Childers Senor UNIX Administrator fscked@pacbell.net (email) 415.664.6291 (voice/msgs) # Providing administrative expertise (not 'damage control') since 1986. # PGP fingerprint: 7EFF 164A E878 7B04 8E9F 32B6 72C2 D8A2 582C 4AFA </pre> </blockquote> <p>richard childers wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>Neil Blakey-Milner complains: <p>"You mean people like myself, Jeroen, Alex, Jim, Nik, and others?" <p>"Oh. We suck." <p>"Never mind." <p>I don't see it being targeted personally but if you want to take it that way you are <br>welcome to. I believe in free will ... and full responsibility. <p>On the other hand, if you cared about it you'd be subscribed to freebsd-questions and <br>you wouldn't need people surreptitiously forwarding my messages to you; you would <br>have spoken up much sooner, in defense of your group; you'd be proactively responding <br>to negative feedback instead of getting defensive. <p>For instance, every time mail gets directed to mwm@mired.org, I get a reply from <br>Michael's qmail installation telling me that that my mail has been redirected to a <br>non-existent address and is being returned as undeliverable. This, based on <br>information and belief, is Mike's best approach to dealing with negative feedback. I <br>can probably forward the bounce to this message, when I get it, if you don't believe <br>me. <p>If that's the sort of behavior that you think should garner your team my respect ... <br>think again. <p>All that aside, there is some nice FreeBSD documentation out there as well as some <br>bad stuff and I have no basis for assuming that you personally are the author of any <br>of the documents I have heard complaints about, at this point in time. <p>Apparently you have not received all of the complaints that were voiced about <br>documentation, if you are only replying to my comments, and no one else's. Whomever <br>was forwarding my comments to you may have done you a disservice by not providing the <br>entire exchange; of course, we could argue that you did yourself a disservice by not <br>acquainting yourself with the topic at hand before commenting, also. <p>-- richard <p>Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: <p>> On Fri 2001-03-16 (06:56), richard childers wrote: <br>> > FreeBSD probably could have addressed this, early in its existence, by adapting <br>> > into the team, a few people whose job was, not to write code, but to work with <br>> > the developers and to insure that their (often incoherent) documentation was <br>> > turned into sequential, step-by-step instructions. <br>> <br>> You mean people like myself, Jeroen, Alex, Jim, Nik, and others? <br>> <br>> Oh. We suck. <br>> <br>> Never mind. <br>> <br>> Neil <br>> -- <br>> Neil Blakey-Milner <br>> nbm@mithrandr.moria.org <p>-- <br>Richard A. Childers <br>Senor UNIX Administrator <br>fscked@pacbell.net (email) <br>415.664.6291 (voice/msgs) <p># Providing administrative expertise (not 'damage control') since 1986. <br># PGP fingerprint: 7EFF 164A E878 7B04 8E9F 32B6 72C2 D8A2 582C 4AFA</blockquote> -- <br>Richard A. Childers <br>Senor UNIX Administrator <br>fscked@pacbell.net (email) <br>415.664.6291 (voice/msgs) <p># Providing administrative expertise (not 'damage control') since 1986. <br># PGP fingerprint: 7EFF 164A E878 7B04 8E9F 32B6 72C2 D8A2 582C 4AFA <br> </html> --------------6BBDB0B8CB586419372CC6CC-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
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