Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:10:56 -0500 From: Karl Denninger <karl@Denninger.Net> To: "Justin T. Gibbs" <gibbs@plutotech.com> Cc: scsi@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Long IDE probes? Message-ID: <19980930141056.A4656@Denninger.Net> In-Reply-To: <199809301850.MAA16318@pluto.plutotech.com>; from Justin T. Gibbs on Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 12:44:13PM -0600 References: <19980930132933.B4481@Denninger.Net> <199809301850.MAA16318@pluto.plutotech.com>
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On Wed, Sep 30, 1998 at 12:44:13PM -0600, Justin T. Gibbs wrote: > >You and I both know damn well that to install you need ONLY, WORST CASE: > > 1. A floppy that works (to boot from) > > 2. A CDROM > > 3. A disk > > You can also install off of tape, a CD-R that can look like a CDROM, > an Optical disk, etc. etc. Sysinstal has allowed for this for some > time. Uh, Justin, you have to get the bits on the media ;-) The point I'm making here is that anything reasonably current in the SCSI world will respond to an INQUIRY - at least - within specs. If it doesn't then its broken. We should endeavor to fix that, yes, but at what price? Where is the line drawn? That's the issue here - we make everyone wait for 2% of users. Why not put this thing in the kernel config screen, and default it to the SCSI standard values. If someone needs to tune it (we can document that) then tune it. But for the rest of us, its a LOT faster. The same holds true for IDE. Follow the specs and give people a workaround if possible from the boot screens. The kernel startup for the boot floppy already recommends that you go through the config screens, so this is not an impossible goal by any stretch. > >Kvetching about how someone's 1980's scanner or ancient tape drive won't > >come up under GENERIC on initial boot is both pointless and inappropriate, > >given that you *know* these facts to be true > > I'm talking about old CDROM drives, CD-Rs and OD disks as well as tapes. There are very few of those which are (1) in service, (2) don't respond to INQUIRY within specs after a RESET, and (3) are actually needed to *boot and load*. For those which are, a parameter in the kernel config screen will allow installation to proceed. > Not everyone performs CDROM or network installs. Documentation exists > for tape installs and for people that have unconnected machines at home, > it should remain an option. An option, yes. But not the default. > >They don't RIGHT NOW and FreeBSD has NEVER had that as a criteria for > >driver probe behavior. > > Does this mean that we shouldn't have that criteria? This is the > criteria I used for all of the ISA probes for the new CAM drivers. You can't possibly get there from here, since there are dozens of permutations and you can't know what is and isn't possible in a given machine with a given set of boards. > >If you want to make a point about ancient hardware, then explain why in the > >heck was CAM integrated without ALL the legacy SCSI devices being supported? > > But all legacy SCSI devices are being supported by CAM (at least that is > the intention barring bugs). Fine. Make it an option. > The user will understand if their wd7000 controller > isn't found during install because the documentation does say that it is > supported, but they will be perplexed if their CDROM drive is not found > when attached to a supported controller. > > -- > Justin Again, document that devices which are non-complient may need a longer timeout, and put that parameter in the kernel config screen. Don't penalize the rest of the users on every boot (many of who have NO IDEA how to build kernels and fix this) because 2% of the users have hardware which is non-complient with the SCSI (or IDE) standards. For a server this is no big deal. For a user with a laptop or other machine which is booted when used and turned off when not this is a BIG deal; "time to be up and running from a cold power-on" is an issue. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) http://www.mcs.net/~karl I ain't even *authorized* to speak for anyone other than myself, so give up now on trying to associate my words with any particular organization. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-scsi" in the body of the message
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