Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:50:05 +1000 From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au> To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com> Cc: ben@rosengart.com, Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? Message-ID: <19980616095005.64408@welearn.com.au> In-Reply-To: <2898.897952053@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 04:07:33PM -0700 References: <19980616075807.13931@welearn.com.au> <2898.897952053@time.cdrom.com>
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On Mon, Jun 15, 1998 at 04:07:33PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > After my third attempt to install from CD, running out of disk space
> > (without being told so) every time, I threw the CD in the bin and booted
> > DOS. Where were you to tell me it's easy to install packages afterwards?
> > Where were you to tell me that I could use alt-F2 though I'd need a unix
>
> Umm, Sue, I appreciate all that you do to help newbies, but I think
Good deeds never stopped anyone from doing bad deeds :-)
> you're missing a fundamental point here. This is a volunteer project,
> first and foremost, and if people really *want* some feature like this
> then they simply have to implement it - neither I nor anyone else has
> the time an energy to implement each and every creature comfort that
> users would like to see, as much as we might like to (and the total
> lack of space information in a package, especially if it's sitting at
> the end of an FTP connection, makes this a little harder than most
> folks would think). If users don't implement the features they want
> in a volunteer OS then they don't get them, it's just that simple.
Sure. Like I said, problems are not an issue at all. If they can't be
fixed right away, or at all, that's acceptable. We can document it to
protect the unprepared if necessary.
The only thing that really gets my goat is pretending that if it's not an
issue for an expert then it won't be an issue to anyone else.
> I also know that not everyone necessarily has the ability to beat a
> path towards their own personal Shangri-la, but that's what commercial
> software is for - if you really need more than any free OS is able to
> give you then it's probably time to reach for your wallet and PAY for
> something which does. I believe that both Solaris and SCO provide
> better diagnostics for the out-of-disk space condition, as does
> Windows 95 if you're on a tighter budget.
I doubt many would want either of them. I found it very difficult to get
1. advice on how much space each distribution would take to install
(which is not the same as final disk space)
2. advice during or before installation on the size of packages, like
is it a few K or a few tens of megs.
Anything to assist here would be worthwhile.
I also took objection to the idea that packages should not be available
during installation. That would cut out freebsd's accessibility to a lot
of newbies. My one concern was that it sounded like that didn't matter to
anyone.
> And no, I'm not being sarcastic with this message, I'm just being
> factual. Going "bitch bitch bitch stupid software bitch bitch bitch
> wanted to throw the fucking CD in the trash bitch bitch bitch Win95
> has this feature bitch bitch bitch" is only a good way of alienating
> folks who know that this is a problem but lack the time to do much
> about it. If you want it fixed, FIX IT!
Sure, as soon as I can I will, but isn't that a bit of a catch 22?
Obviously I don't feel frustrated about freebsd as I did back then. If
others feel like that now, nobody will get to see their anger, they'll
just drift away bad-mouthing freebsd. We have to avoid that happening
where it is reasonably practical to do so. Tailoring everything to
experts is an easy trap to slip into. We're just starting to come out of
that trap and when I think I see people slipping back into it it scares
the bejeebers outa me.
> That's the lovely thing about free software - you have that option and
> are always encouraged to exercise it, no matter who you are, if it's
> something you really really want. If you're not motivated enough to
> gain the skills necessary to do it, then I guess you didn't want the
> feature that much after all, did ya? :-)
I have shown many sides, but I don't think I have ever shown lack of
motivation. Hand over the tardis and I'll shut up and fix it :-)
--
Regards,
-*Sue*-
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