Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 10:32:14 -0600 From: Chip Morton <tech_info@threespace.com> To: FreeBSD Chat <chat@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Free BSD Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020316100234.01b21638@threespace.com> In-Reply-To: <3C92A60D.F7AD3CC8@mindspring.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <15505.28725.937368.158235@guru.mired.org> <20020314204235.L152-100000@pogo.caustic.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315181331.01b26160@threespace.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020315190230.01b2a4f8@threespace.com>
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At 07:55 PM 3/15/2002, Terry Lambert wrote: >Chip Morton wrote: >[ Jef Raskin ] > > Yeah, I kinda figured there might be some sour grapes in there. But rather > > than bitch about the 70-some-odd "inhumane" window managers shipping with > > FreeBSD and Linux, he should create his own wm and throw it in--let the > > crowd decide what's what. Even if he created some nice skins for Windows > > XP or Mac OS X, I'd be interested to know how many people were satisfied > > with his one-bit monochrome GUI. > >You clearly didn't read the article... your suggestions >fail because in it he complains about all the things you >ask for here. I'll paraphrase (these are not actual phrase >quotes, they are my interpretation of his meaning): Oh I read the article, all right. And I disagree with most of it. And the only thing that I've "suggested" here is that he ante up and actually *implement* some of his ideas. I really take issue with his blanket assertion that (paraphrasing here) "All windowing systems/GUIs are screwed up, and I could do it so much better--but I won't." And let's be real here about the rest of your/Raskin's points. All windowing systems with significant market share operate under a de facto standard. Regardless of whether you think that standard is the best or not, most people use WMs that are functionally very similar. And switching from one to the other doesn't require a degree in astrophysics to figure out. Now if Raskin wants to change that de facto standard, he's essentially going *against* the standardization that he argues for. The standardization of the interface is essentially done. Let's leave it be and move on to bigger issues. I read an article in which an engineer at one of the major American car manufacturers said that response time could be improved by placing braking/acceleration controls on the steering wheel. He argued that the time required for the driver to move his feet was significant in decisions requiring split-second responses. But you know how many car makers were interested in adopting his idea? Zero! Because nobody wants to relearn how to use his hands rather than his feet to drive the car. I sure wouldn't rent/buy one. The point is that once the population at large has settled on a particular method--whether through conscious decision-making or lack thereof--getting them all to switch to another method, even a better one, is damn near impossible. Believe me that if the music industry hadn't shoved CDs down our collective throats, some of us would still be listening to cassette tapes or 8-tracks. [More points made below] >1) "Skins are EVIL". > >2) "Preferences are EVIL". > >3) "You have to build the entire system to support the > UI, not just throw a UI onto a system" (i.e. a "wm" > is not an option). > >4) If you want to help him do the right thing, you are > supposed to contact him via email. > >5) "Monochrome is good; busy is bad; imagine a background > picture that looked like abunch of open applications". > > > > And speaking of monochrome, I have to speak up for the eye-candy fanatics > > out there. Too often I see high-color graphics pooh-poohed as frivolous in > > serious computing tasks, but while it may not be essential to the task at > > hand it does add to the enjoyment some people get from using their > > systems. (I'm assuming that I'm not the only one who feels that way. And > > based on the number of pretty window managers out there, I'm sure I'm > > not.) I wasn't using FreeBSD for a good long time because Linux had a > > prettier default installation, but KDE2 brought me back. (And I still > > don't see what Opera has over Konqueror.) Yes, I would rather ride in the > > candy-coated, rimmed-up sports car. Yes, I'd rather talk to the pretty > > bank teller. Yes, I am shallow sometimes, but hey, life is short. ;-) > >6) "Eye candy is EVIL because it damages consistency; it > is important that training on applications on one > machine be transportable to another machine running > the same application". > >7) "If the uer's attention is on the interface, then it > detracts from there ability to perform th task for > which the tool [the computer] was obtained". The actual look of a window manager (or car, or woman, or anything else) only matters very early up front. You may be wowed by the look of the windows and widgets early on, but after that it really doesn't matter to you while you're working. Sure, I don't like the look of twm, but I would be no more/less productive by using it. In fact, I might argue that the pleasure I get out of having an attractive, colorful windowing system with my girlfriend on the wallpaper would actually make me more productive on the whole. Productivity isn't just about the milliseconds saved in dragging the mouse from one corner to the next. I really think that the shortcomings in Raskin's arguments become apparent when he mentions the ridiculous prospect of using a wallpaper that looks like open windows. Who the hell would do something that stupid? Besides him, I guess. Because frankly, I think that he deserved to get his ass beat for changing somebody's color scheme to red on red and forcing them to have to reinstall it. If that's his best argument for why we don't need color in the GUI, then I rest my case. Like I said, he can develop his 1-bit WM and then he can have it. << Chip Morton >> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
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