Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 13:34:19 +0200 From: Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> To: hw <hw@adminart.net> Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: thunderbird in German? Message-ID: <20190809133419.3de9e65f.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <87sgqdq0nw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <87o91bw4mx.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190731012754.3783a859.freebsd@edvax.de> <878ssc5v3x.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190802053434.6babd0d0.freebsd@edvax.de> <87y30b8h0v.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190803042205.550f5903.freebsd@edvax.de> <87pnllbxp7.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20190805070522.be1fb873.freebsd@edvax.de> <87sgqdq0nw.fsf@toy.adminart.net>
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On Wed, 07 Aug 2019 02:28:19 +0200, hw wrote:
> Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> writes:
>=20
> > On Sun, 04 Aug 2019 02:07:00 +0200, hw wrote:
> >> Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> writes:
> >>=20
> >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 22:10:56 +0200, hw wrote:
> >> >> Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> writes:
> >> >>=20
> >> >> > On Fri, 02 Aug 2019 01:22:42 +0200, hw wrote:
> >> >> >> Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> writes:
> >> >> >>=20
> >> >> [...]
> >> > While it has been good practice for decades to use -Wall and its
> >> > equivalents, it doesn't seem to be important anymore. Compile time
> >> > errors and warnings are irrelevant just as runtime warnings and
> >> > errors.
> >>=20
> >> My impression is that software is now generally much more stable than =
it
> >> used to be. I don't know why, perhaps better tools became available.
> >
> > Yes, program stability has improved, especially for web browsers.
> > But it's more than fair to acknowledge that the complexity of a
> > web browser is comparable to the complexity of a whole operating
> > system.
>=20
> Web browsers are evil.
A neccessary one, it seems...
> >> > You can easily verify this by launching any "modern" Gtk or Qt progr=
am
> >> > from a terminal, say, Firefox, Gimp, and so on.
> >> [...]
> > Here are a few:
> >
> > (gimp:3022): GLib-WARNING **:
> > goption.c:2132: ignoring no-arg,
> > optional-arg or filename flags (8) on option of type 0
> >
> > (gimp:3022): Gimp-Display-CRITICAL **:
> > render_image_tile_fault: assertion `tile[4] !=3D NULL' failed
> > end from FAM server connection
> > end from FAM server connection
> > end from FAM server connection
> > end from FAM server connection
> > end from FAM server connection
> >
> > (gimp:3022): Gtk-CRITICAL **:
> > IA__gtk_icon_info_load_icon: assertion `icon_info !=3D NULL' failed
> > end from FAM server connection
> > end from FAM server connection
> >
> > (gimp:3022): Gimp-Display-CRITICAL **:
> > render_image_tile_fault: assertion `tile[4] !=3D NULL' failed
> >
> > (gimp:3022): Gtk-CRITICAL **:
> > IA__gtk_icon_info_load_icon: assertion `icon_info !=3D NULL' failed
> >
> > (gimp:3022): Gimp-Base-WARNING **:
> > tile ref count balance: 20
> >
> > (process:3532): Gtk-WARNING **:
> > Locale not supported by C library.
> > Using the fallback 'C' locale.
> >
> > (gimp:4511): Gtk-CRITICAL **:
> > IA__gtk_icon_info_load_icon: assertion `icon_info !=3D NULL' failed
> > libpng warning: zero length keyword
> > libpng warning: Empty language field in iTXt chunk
> > end from FAM server connection
> > end from FAM server connection
> >
> > A few can be explained (the last one probably refers to a damaged
> > or nonstandard PNG file), but the others are warnings and "CRITICAL",
> > where I think this should have been addressed during testing. Do
> > they still do testing today? :-)
>=20
> I don't know. Did Gimp crash or something?
No, it works as intended, no problems. Just those messages.
Maybe I should decorate my programs with such warnings, too? ;-)
> >> > Churning out new versions and new features often seems to be
> >> > more important that fixing bugs or working against bad decisions.
> >> > Doing it right for everyone is impossible, I know, but a certain
> >> > amount of "good old common sense" should be applied more. :-)
> >>=20
> >> These kids don't have that. How could they?
> >
> > Need more download brain apps from smartphone. :-)
>=20
> That won't help ...
>=20
> In some way, it's hard to blame them because they never learned how much
> can be done with 64kB of RAM and how "fast" computers can be. I was
> gona say you can't really blame them for the total failure of the
> educational system, but when they can protest against climate change, I
> have to say they should long ago have protested much more against the
> poor education they're getting. I suppose they have been told one thing
> and not the other, so they try to go the easier way ...
You need to "exceed" the education you receive to _recognize_
that it is poor. If the education works on you, you will be
sure you got the best education available. :-)
> I don't want all the windows to look the same, that's ugly and boring,
> and some need to be handled differently than others for things to be
> usable.
Yes, because even though programs have common ways for inter-
action (the known GUI elements), they serve different purposes
and therefore it's _significant_ to provide an interaction that
matches the task you want to perform with the program.
Example (seen a few days ago): An accounting program, data entry:
You need to click on every input field in order to enter the
data with the beyboard. Some fields have a button where you can
open a "calculator-like" screen keyboard for numbers. But for
letters, there's none. You cannot use TAB or cursor keys or
ENTER to advance fields. Can you imagine how annoying it must
be to enter pages and pages of information to that stupid
program? Oh - and you cannot feed external data...
> > A program's job is _not_ to do what the window manager does. A program
> > can request to be handled in a different way, for exaple, without
> > a window decoration (like XMMS MP3 player where it doesn't make sense,
> > or little utilities in the "system corner" like xconsole, xbiff,
> > xclock, xload, xcpufreq, etc.). But programs sometimes used their
> > own ugly white _mouse cursor_ for no reason! Using a specific
> > mouse cursor is normal for tools like Gimp, xfig, even LibreOffice.
> > But generic programs? Why?
>=20
> Like emacs using a particular pointer to indicate that it is busy when
> configured to do so can make sense. If it couldn't do that, it would
> need to somehow tell the WM that it's busy and the WM would have to
> change the pointer on some or all windows --- and if it would be done
> like that rather than emacs changing the pointer, people would say the
> WM and emacs are bloated. Or are they, or is X11 bloated for allowing
> to change pointers?
If the cursor changes for a good reason, it's acceptable, but
what about a program changing my normal black mouse cursot to
an ugly white one? It's a PDF viewer, nothing more! It doesn't
switch to any other cursor shape (like Gimp: cross cursor for
selection, paint can cursor, brush cursor and so on).
> >> >> But when you use the trackball with your left hand, [...]
> >> >
> >> > That's entirely wrong. You don't use a trackball because it
> >> > does not exist. Everyone uses a mouse (old people) or taps on
> >> > the screen (young people). ;-)
> >>=20
> >> Dunno, I've already been way ahead of those tiny tap-screens 35 years
> >> ago when I used an old black-and-white TV as a display for my computer.
> >> I could see everything on it, and I could even program the computer
> >> which made it rather useful, and, imagine that, without being spied up=
on
> >> and without being controlled by anyone else. So I don't understand how
> >> anyone can put up with the useless crap you have to tap on while you
> >> can't see anything and achieve nothing.
> >
> > That's totally intended. :-)
>=20
> That doesn't mean people have to put with it.
People have learned to accept it.
> >> >> [...] you suddenly notice
> >> >> how wrong all the GUIs are designed. The old X programs can have t=
he
> >> >> scroll bar on the left no problem, but all the new stuff is so great
> >> >> because it's immature and you have to click the like buttons noneth=
eless
> >> >> (even if you can't reach them because they're at odd locations).
> >> >
> >> > This is called "to explore". ;-)
> >>=20
> >> Hallowed are the like buttons! Who presses the greatest number of them
> >> will be rewarded with the most friends of them all!
> >
> > I prefer the dislike buttons, I'd be tempted to click on _those_
> > rather than the Facebook spy machine's ones. :-)
>=20
> The problem is always that there are no such buttons. Think of
> elections, too ...
Elections miss a "none of those", which is problematic especially
in Germany where shit is offered in different tastes; interestingly,
if I remember correctly, India (!) has a "none of those" option...
> >> >> >> >> Is this a general problem
> >> >> >> >> with the language pack or something specific to FreeBSD?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Not FreeBSD-specific. It's one of the typical problems of
> >> >> >> > "constant change" when dealing with Mozilla software... :-/
> >> >> >>=20
> >> >> >> Is there a usable alternative to Thunderbird for an IMAP client?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Yes, Sylpheed is a lightweight and still very convenient and
> >> >> > usable MUA. It supports IMAP (as well as SMTP and POP3, which
> >> >> > is so obvious that I don't need to mention it).
> >> >>=20
> >> >> Hm. I'll try that out, thanks. If that is in German, the users can
> >> >> decide what causes them more confusion: the same program they're us=
ed to
> >> >> in English but German or a new program they've never used, but in G=
erman.
> >> >
> >> > Sylpheed is in any language you want (English and German verified),
> >> > depending on what $LC_* says.
> >>=20
> >> I tried it yesterday, and it has come a long way. I think the last ti=
me
> >> I tried it, it was called slightly different with claws, and it crashed
> >> all the time.
> >
> > Yes, I had the same problem on FreeBSD/AMD64. I'm not using the
> > Claws version ("Claws mail" today? I don't know due to the many
> > name chances...) and I'm more than happy with it. It does what
> > I want, and even better (!): It does _not_ do what I _don't_ want
> > it to do, like rendering HTML, automatically open attachments,
> > or other nonsense. It also integrates well with my mailing setup,
> > a nonstandard configuration that "modern" MUAs probably cannot
> > even be configured to attach to, because there's "only one way"
> > to access mail.
>=20
> right
>=20
> If I only could make Sylpheed remember which program to use to open
> which kind of attachment with ...
I haven't found a way to do that conveniently. Or at least
_one_ program to open anything with a doubleclick. I think
there is some OpenDesktop opener - xdgopen - which can be
called for any file type and will then perform the required
action.
> >> But I haven't figured out how to make it so that libreoffice instead of
> >> gedit is the default program to open spreadsheets attached to
> >> emails.
> >
> > Right-click on attachment, select "Open with", enter the command
> > needed for this file type, and it will be saved.
>=20
> It saves only the command and not when to use it. That is way too
> complicated for the users because they need not only to remember to pick
> it but also which one.
I have learned to live with it, but I find it annoying, too.
> And it's _very_ annoying. There are a lot of spreadsheets being sent as
> emails as part of some workflows. It sucks that I have to use yet
> another menu, pick from there what I want to do, pick from another menu
> in yet another window that appears somewhere else on the screen
> (MinOverlapPlacement) what program to use to open the attachment after
> remembering what I wanted when I started, to finally be able to work
> with the spreadsheed eventually. Why can't there be a button at the
> attachment I can click on to open the attachment with the program I
> once, and only once, picked for it?
This is the concept of the common file associations in file
managers. Sylpheed could pick that idea up.
> Why do I even have to "open" the attachment rather than Sylpheed
> displaying it inline like it does with images? Libreoffice is open
> source ...
Because that's problematic. Inline image viewer - yes, not
that complicated. PDF renderer? More complicated. HTML renderer,
with CSS and JS? Very complicated, better embed a browser
session. Office documents? With macros? Oh, _very_ dangerous.
MP3 files? A player would have to be mebedded. There are just
too many possibilities and no one size fits all eierlegende
Wollmilchsau mit Goldf=FC=DFen und Glockenspiel. :-)
> > For example, I have two different commands for PDF attachments -
> > simply because I sometimes need program A, sometimes program B,
> > depending on the PDF file.
>=20
> Users don't have that.
Exactly. That's why Thunderbird does a better job in this case.
It "just works". Have a PDF attachment - doubleclick - system's
PDF viewer opens it.
> Even if everyone had lots of programs to open PDFs and spreadsheets,
> Sylpheed should nonetheless be able to remember them all and have a
> button to straightforwardly use the one picked for the purpose to open
> an attachment. It is rather unlikely that I would want to use all or
> even several of them to open that attachment and more likely that I do
> want to use the program I want to use for it, so what the heck.
So there's sufficient space for improvement. :-)
--=20
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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