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Date:      Wed, 4 Apr 2001 18:32:22 +0100
From:      Jamie Heckford <heckfordj@psi-domain.co.uk>
To:        chosey@nidhog.com
Cc:        freebsd-isp@freebsd.org
Subject:   RE: RE: Chasing the kiddies (was: Named Keep crashing)
Message-ID:  <20010404183222.Y2879@storm.psi-domain.co.uk>
In-Reply-To: <B1A7D9973EBED3119ADD009027DC8649180F81@mailman.thenap.com>; from drew.weaver@thenap.com on Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 17:43:02 %2B0100
References:  <B1A7D9973EBED3119ADD009027DC8649180F81@mailman.thenap.com>

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I think allowing less understanding is *not* the best
stance to take on running a public server.

RPM is easier, but less flexible (IMHO). I must admit
though, apt-get is quite impressive when it comes to upgrading.

J

On 2001.04.04 17:43 Drew J. Weaver wrote:


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chet Hosey [mailto:chosey@nidhog.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 12:17 PM
> To: Drew J. Weaver
> Cc: 'freebsd-isp@freebsd.org'
> Subject: OT: RE: Chasing the kiddies (was: Named Keep crashing)
> 
> 
> >From what I've seen, RH has GUI tools for a lot of things (Linuxconf, I
> think?). RH seems much simpler to run (as an end user) than FreeBSD. You
> can download RPMs for everything, including the kernel. I know RedHat
> users who've never touched gcc.
> 
> Even using ports requires slightly more knowledge than "Using Netscape,
> download coolproggie.rpm, open an xterm, and run rpm -i coolproggie.rpm".
> 
> Under Debian, upgrading Bind for the security fix is a matter of "apt-get
> update; apt-get install bind". Hell, upgrading *everything*, system libs,
> init, X, name-your-vi-clone, emacs, bind, lynx, etc., is just "apt-get
> update; apt-get dist-upgrade".
> 
> The RedHat way of doing things allows one to avoid understanding. It
> seems
> that FreeBSD allows less ignorance.
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> Chet Hosey
> <chosey@nidhog.com>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Drew J. Weaver wrote:
> 
> > 	Just an off topic note here, FreeBSD, BSDi/OS and RedHat are
> all of
> > equal "difficulty" to administer, I run all 3 and none of them make me
> > shiver in my boots. Not sure what point you're attempting to make here?
> >
> > --- quoth the raven, ---
> >
> > Everybody should start with a *nix running on a publicly accessable
> box.
> > (Note: Linux doesn't count here, except possibly really old versions of
> > Slackware. Damned RH makes things too easy. No X either - CLI, people!)
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> >
> > Chet Hosey
> > <chosey@nidhog.com>
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> >
> > On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Bill Vermillion wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 05:45:48PM +1000, Enno Davids thus spoke:
> > >
> > > > | > Is there any way to trace who is doing it? | > Running tcpdump
> > > > with certain filter settings to avoid logging everything and
> > > > filling the disk?
> > >
> > >
> > > > | Dont bother... Just install the fixed version of bind...
> > > > | Every kid with a script and an internet connection is probably
> > > > | doing this to you!!!
> > >
> > > > This response kind of bothers me. There was a time
> > > > when everytime I could sanely trace spammers I emailed
> > > > abuse@wherever.was.relevant to advise them. Similarly, when people
> > > > probed Apache I'd send off adivsory emails.
> > >
> > > If you find a way this works let me know.  I've given up doing this
> > > because except for the most well known, I've received rejects from
> > > all mail addresses at the offending provider, root,abuse,
> > > postmaster, webmaster, etc.  So I just gave up and put the in
> > > the REJECT list.
> > >
> > > Those days responsible people, and not quick buck artists, we're
> > > keeping the 'net running.
> > >
> > > > There was a time when if you probed the Apache on my machine it
> > > > winnuke'd you back. Moral issues aside, there _was_ a great deal
> > > > of satisfaction there... Needless to say, there's little mileage
> > > > in this now (damned M$ service packs!). :)
> > >
> > > I never was into 'revenge' or 'tit-for-tat'.
> > >
> > > Bill
> > > --
> > > Bill Vermillion -   bv @ wjv . com
> > >
> > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-isp" in the body of the message
> > >
> >
> >
> > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> > with "unsubscribe freebsd-isp" in the body of the message
> >
> 
> 
> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
> with "unsubscribe freebsd-isp" in the body of the message
> 
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
> <HTML>
> <HEAD>
> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
> <META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2650.12">
> <TITLE>RE: RE: Chasing the kiddies (was: Named Keep crashing)</TITLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY>
> 
> <P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=2>Actually its
> easier to keep updated software on your machine if you're using FreeBSD,
> through ports, all you do is cvsup your ports collection and go into the
> directory of the program you want to install and type make install and it
> downloads and installs it, doesnt really get much easier than that, but
> really, what is wrong with something being easy, and understandable, I
> find it somewhat refreshing that not everything is as complicated as
> sendmail =) </FONT></P>
> 
> <P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: Chet Hosey [<A
> HREF="mailto:chosey@nidhog.com">mailto:chosey@nidhog.com</A>]</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 12:17 PM</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: Drew J. Weaver</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Cc: 'freebsd-isp@freebsd.org'</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: OT: RE: Chasing the kiddies (was: Named Keep
> crashing)</FONT>
> </P>
> <BR>
> 
> <P><FONT SIZE=2>From what I've seen, RH has GUI tools for a lot of things
> (Linuxconf, I</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>think?). RH seems much simpler to run (as an end user)
> than FreeBSD. You</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>can download RPMs for everything, including the kernel.
> I know RedHat</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>users who've never touched gcc.</FONT>
> </P>
> 
> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Even using ports requires slightly more knowledge than
> &quot;Using Netscape,</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>download coolproggie.rpm, open an xterm, and run rpm -i
> coolproggie.rpm&quot;.</FONT>
> </P>
> 
> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Under Debian, upgrading Bind for the security fix is a
> matter of &quot;apt-get</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>update; apt-get install bind&quot;. Hell, upgrading
> *everything*, system libs,</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>init, X, name-your-vi-clone, emacs, bind, lynx, etc., is
> just &quot;apt-get</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>update; apt-get dist-upgrade&quot;.</FONT>
> </P>
> 
> <P><FONT SIZE=2>The RedHat way of doing things allows one to avoid
> understanding. It seems</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>that FreeBSD allows less ignorance.</FONT>
> </P>
> 
> <P><FONT SIZE=2>________________________________________________________________________</FONT>
> </P>
> 
> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Chet Hosey</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&lt;chosey@nidhog.com&gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>________________________________________________________________________</FONT>
> </P>
> 
> <P><FONT SIZE=2>On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Drew J. Weaver wrote:</FONT>
> </P>
> 
> <P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Just an off topic
> note here, FreeBSD, BSDi/OS and RedHat are all of</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; equal &quot;difficulty&quot; to administer, I run
> all 3 and none of them make me</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; shiver in my boots. Not sure what point you're
> attempting to make here?</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; --- quoth the raven, ---</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Everybody should start with a *nix running on a
> publicly accessable box.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; (Note: Linux doesn't count here, except possibly
> really old versions of</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Slackware. Damned RH makes things too easy. No X
> either - CLI, people!)</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; ________________________________________________________________________</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Chet Hosey</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &lt;chosey@nidhog.com&gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; ________________________________________________________________________</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Bill Vermillion wrote:</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; On Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 05:45:48PM +1000, Enno
> Davids thus spoke:</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; &gt; | &gt; Is there any way to trace who is
> doing it? | &gt; Running tcpdump</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; &gt; with certain filter settings to avoid
> logging everything and</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; &gt; filling the disk?</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; &gt; | Dont bother... Just install the fixed
> version of bind...</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; &gt; | Every kid with a script and an internet
> connection is probably</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; &gt; | doing this to you!!!</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; &gt; This response kind of bothers me. There
> was a time</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; &gt; when everytime I could sanely trace
> spammers I emailed</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; &gt; abuse@wherever.was.relevant to advise
> them. Similarly, when people</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; &gt; probed Apache I'd send off adivsory
> emails.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; If you find a way this works let me
> know.&nbsp; I've given up doing this</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; because except for the most well known, I've
> received rejects from</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; all mail addresses at the offending provider,
> root,abuse,</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; postmaster, webmaster, etc.&nbsp; So I just
> gave up and put the in</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; the REJECT list.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; Those days responsible people, and not quick
> buck artists, we're</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; keeping the 'net running.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; &gt; There was a time when if you probed the
> Apache on my machine it</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; &gt; winnuke'd you back. Moral issues aside,
> there _was_ a great deal</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; &gt; of satisfaction there... Needless to say,
> there's little mileage</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; &gt; in this now (damned M$ service packs!).
> :)</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; I never was into 'revenge' or
> 'tit-for-tat'.</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; Bill</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; --</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; Bill Vermillion -&nbsp;&nbsp; bv @ wjv .
> com</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; To Unsubscribe: send mail to
> majordomo@FreeBSD.org</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; with &quot;unsubscribe freebsd-isp&quot; in
> the body of the message</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; To Unsubscribe: send mail to
> majordomo@FreeBSD.org</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; with &quot;unsubscribe freebsd-isp&quot; in the
> body of the message</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
> </P>
> <BR>
> 
> <P><FONT SIZE=2>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org</FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>with &quot;unsubscribe freebsd-isp&quot; in the body of
> the message</FONT>
> </P>
> 
> </BODY>
> </HTML>
-- 
Jamie Heckford
Chief Network Engineer
Psi-Domain - Innovative Linux Solutions. Ask Us How.

FreeBSD - The power to serve

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