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Date:      Tue, 30 Apr 1996 18:34:54 -0600
From:      Nate Williams <nate@sri.MT.net>
To:        dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu
Cc:        Nate Williams <nate@sri.MT.net>, Denis Malyavin <denism@mol.net.my>, questions@FreeBSD.org
Subject:   Re: Hello
Message-ID:  <199605010034.SAA05536@rocky.sri.MT.net>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.960430170941.2520C-100000@riley-net170-164.uoregon.edu>
References:  <199604300124.TAA01656@rocky.sri.MT.net> <Pine.BSF.3.91.960430170941.2520C-100000@riley-net170-164.uoregon.edu>

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> > > > Do you think its worth to install FreeBSD on my system?
> > > 
> > > It'll be tight, depending on what you put on.  you need to have enough 
> > > space either on there or on another FreeBSD machine to build a new kernel 
> > > for.  You _want_ to apply the Nomad PCMCIA patches.   
> >             ^^^^^^
> > 
> > Hey, I take offense at that.  The code in the Nomad's patches now exists
> > almost completely in -current, plus there are lots of bug-fixes for the
> > APM code in -current that doesn't exist in the Nomad patches.
> 
> Yes, but most of us don't want to run -current, especially on a laptop. 
> We had to upgrade our Dell to the SNAP so that we could keep up with the
> patches, which are based on it.  But that thing won't run -current as long
> as I say so.  Maybe this desktop, yes, but the laptop is a toy, and we
> can't spend our time fiddling with it.   We spend enough time fiddling 
> with our machines as it is, and they're all on 2.1.  

Fair enough.  However, realize that the Nomad patches contain lots of
-current code in them.

> > If people don't run the actual FreeBSD code we'll never get real working
> > laptop support in a FreeBSD release.  I emailed Hosokawa-san about this,
> > and he agrees.  The Nomad code will continue to be 'alpha' quality
> > containing hacks and bad things that 'make things work', intended for
> > proof of concept than actual implementations.
> 
> Then put it in -stable.  -Current is too UNstable for non-hackers to 
> run.

The Nomad patches are too unstable for -stable.  Heck, some of the
patches are too unstable for -current, that's why I hacked them up.  All
of the 'stable' patches already exist in -stable.  However, I don't want
to make it unstable by adding in some of the bogus and possibly
de-stabilizing patches just to get it working in -stable.

Let me summarize what's been done, and what's left:

- APM kernel/userland code in both is the same, and is hopefully good
  enough for all laptops.
- PC-CARD kernel support is the same, and is almost exactly the same as
  the Nomad code (minus some minor hacks and formatting changes).

-current
--------
- The userland code is working, but slightly out of date (missing some
  nice features of the Nomad code).
- There are some additional (useful), additional (redundant), and
  patches that -current doesn't contain that the Nomad patches contains.
- there are some big hacks that exist in the Nomad kernel code that
  don't exist in -current.  Some of them may be necessary for APM
  support on certain laptops, but I don't think so with the new patches
  I did which work around the *real* problem.

-stable
-------
- The user-land code doesn't exist
- A patch to /sys/i386/i386/autoconf.c is necessary to enable the kernel
  PC-CARD code.
- None of the drivers have been patched to add PC-CARD functionality.
  These patches are not -stable fodder, and although most of them are
  "OK", some are a bit dicey.

The Nomad code simply takes the -current drivers and back-ports them to
-stable, plus it contains all of the bad hacks that no longer exist in
both -current and -stable.

So, if you use the Nomad patches, you still have a chance of an unstable
system.  (Although the instabilities may not show up on laptops).

What I'm trying to do is this:

- Work on the understanding the user-land code.  Thank goodness I waited
  until the end to work on it, else I would have gave up long ago.
  There are lots of hard-coded #'s, missing comments, and lots of magic
  that goes in in the user-land code.  The kernel code is *much*
  cleaner.

- Cleanup the drivers in -current, and add in the good code from the
  Nomad patches.  Also, try to bring in the functionality of their
  patches into our current drivers w/out breaking them would be nice. :)

- Backport all of the driver code to -stable, and provide it as a
  experimental patch so the next -stable release will have some patches
  to add this functionality.

- Keep my sanity. :)

In order to do this, I need *testers* who can tell me how things work,
and if folks only use the Nomad code this isn't going to help me at all.
Telling folks that 'You _want_ to apply the Nomad PCMCIA patches'
implies that there is no other solution, or that the other solutions are
somehow 'bad'.  Please avoid making my job harder, as I need some help.



Nate



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