Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 01:07:33 +1000 From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au> To: Photon Blizzard <photon@ionet.net> Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Why the list then? Message-ID: <19990919010731.D14607@welearn.com.au> In-Reply-To: <37E318EE.75F915AF@ionet.net>; from Photon Blizzard on Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 11:45:34PM -0500 References: <37E318EE.75F915AF@ionet.net>
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On Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 11:45:34PM -0500, Photon Blizzard wrote:
>
> *Stuff deleted*
Ditto.
> They've got a lotta' really swell T-Shirts and other nifty stuff at
> 'www.freebsd.mall' too! I even have my very own FreeBSD T-Shirt!
> Cool, huh!
Hmph. I want a full length black skirt with little daemons all over it!
Maybe they'll get them in one day... I can dream, can't I?
> 'Questions' is the last list that a brand new BSD user will get an
> answer from, and apparently, even asking questions from this list
> will get mostly negative 'I am Super Geek! No Stupidity Tolerated'
> results.
If you get that sort of response from this list, you almost deserve it
for expecting newbies to have a level of sophistication that would
allow them to refer you politely to the correct list. They should, but
many are still learning to do that. Bad behaviour is inexcusable
everywhere, but people do have to be free to make a lot of mistakes in
order to learn. Some of the biggest jerks have settled down and become
valued contributors once they get a chance to relax and feel they fit
in. We hardly ever have flame fests here, but when we do, everyone
learns a lesson from it. The one just ending now is a good example.
Everyone involved did a lot of hard thinking, and in the end I think
we're all better people than when it started. In a newbies-only
environment at least we can forgive each other and not have a
reputation to live down forever among the broader community.
On the other hand, if you get that kind of put-down response on
freebsd-questions, that HAS to be fixed. They must get used to seeing
sensible newbies with sensible questions, however simple, and seeing
appropriate responses. It's all very well to expect more experienced
users to help, but it has to go both ways. How can we help the
non-newbies to get used to dealing with newbies if newbies send their
questions elsewhere? How can we deal with issues if we can only speak
in a forum where newbies feel outnumbered by super geeks? If you don't
like the way you're treated in freebsd-questions, come here to a safe
environment if you need to let off steam, where you won't be shouted
down by experts if you say anything stupid. Then we can work on a
solution: help you reword your question, have my budgerigar crap all
over the offender's keyboard, or whatever.
> And I have a confession to make, I am currently running Linux.
> EEEKKK!!!! :-) For general 'Defeat the evil Bill Gates' OS it is much
> easier for 'userland' apps than anything else. (Not that
> near-do-well evil clone RedHat, but Slackware). On this same machine
> I have Virus 95', (primarily for printing), Slackware Linux 4.0 and
> FreeBSD 2.8.8.
A large proportion of freebsd-newbies subscribers (compared to the
other lists) runs other operating systems, so there's no need for
anyone to feel inhibited about mentioning them here. Nobody gets
religious about it either, which is nice.
> Point is, where the heck can a "Newbie" go to get very basic install
> help for FreeBSD?
FreeBSD-questions.
> I am not trying to be negative, but this list seems
> to attract newbies wanting to ask newbie questions,
It attracts newbies, many of whom are too unfamiliar with mailing lists
to be bothered following the list charters. If they made that mistake
elsewhere, they'd get quite a hostile reception, not good for one's
first taste of FreeBSD. It's nicer to get prodded by 200 fellow
learners here, rather than flamed by 2000 experts in another FreeBSD
list.
> but the questions are technically outside the lists charter. So why
> is it here?
For many tiny little things. It is a catch-all for any newbies activity
that is not permitted in other lists. It's a place where newbies can
relax and be newbies just with other newbies, without having to feel
like they're at school or under inspection all the time.
It is not meant to be everyone's cup of tea. In particular, those
newbies who think that 100% of being a newbie is asking for help won't
like it, and should be encouraged to move on. Those newbies who want
time off from constantly pleading for help and/or being told what to
do, who want to talk to some other FreeBSD users as equals for a
change, can use this list. There's nowhere else where they can do that.
A huge number of people find it boring and won't want to hang around
here, and that's OK too. They're free to go play with the Big Boys.
Every FreeBSD list is open to newbies (but study the list charters
first!), but this is the only one where the communication mistakes that
come from inexperience can be tolerated, not judged harshly if it's
clear that learning is happening.
It's also the place where you can get responses exclusively from
newbies, for example, opinions on a newbies-friendly resource or
activity. And as the welcome mat for new newbies, you all have the
opportunity to contribute here by helping them to feel they are among
friends and to become comfortable using the resources that are available.
That's an important job that nobody can do as well as other newbies.
Like it or not, you are all role models for everyone who wanders in
wondering whether or not to continue with this FreeBSD thing.
Fortunately you don't have to provide examples of technical support as
well, but if you don't like how it's going over there you can bitch
about it here until we all get it right.
> Be well, and much happiness!
You too :-)
--
Regards,
-*Sue*-
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