Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 13:21:05 -0700 From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> To: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@komquats.com> Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" <freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net>, Hans Petter Selasky <hps@selasky.org>, Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com>, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" <arch@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support Message-ID: <CANCZdfq%2BiRDJeNFP9hKZXrDmcZZPn4jqzYZDpspiohJ%2BFMj9hA@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <201712032005.vB3K5Zki034723@slippy.cwsent.com> References: <freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <201712032005.vB3K5Zki034723@slippy.cwsent.com>
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On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@komquats.com> wrote: > In message <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney > W. > Gri > mes" writes: > > > On 12/03/17 07:16, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > > In message <CANCZdfrYdQTtjZJ_+jSVr25wjAZXd-+ > 4atSaeT5ahfprbtXHWw@mail.gmai > > l.c > > > > om> > > > > , Warner Losh writes: > > > >> --001a1144e7002bf7b0055f684ec8 > > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > >> > > > >> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Cy Schubert < > Cy.Schubert@komquats.com> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> bms@ has given me USB floppy formatting code which I'd planned to > merge > > > >>> > > > >> into fdformat but considering the underlying devices are so very > differe > > nt > > > >>> it would be a difficult marriage. I'd be willing to support a > ufdformat > > > >>> instead. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> I'm keen on getting that into the tree. I have a ufd device and a > need t > > o > > > >> use it from time to time. If nothing else, I can be a reviewer of > the co > > de. > > > >> Is ufd working for you? > > > > > > > > It does work. My todo was to merge ufdformat into fdformat but as I > said > > > > they are different enough that I need to work out how best to merge > them. > > > > Having said that, now that there's discussion of removing fdc(4) > maybe it > > 's > > > > best to simply use ufdformat separately from fdformat that when we > have t > > he > > > > inclination to remove fdc(4), which may be very soon now -- it would > be > > > > much less messy. I'm open to either option. > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Normally, I'd argue we might want to have a release where it's > > > >>> deprecated, > > > >>>> but it already was unusable in 11, and barely usable in 10 and > has bee > > n a > > > >>>> shadow of its former self for much longer than that. > > > >>> > > > >>> The reason to keep some form of floppy support, eder fd or ufd is > for t > > he > > > >>> purpose of copying (dd) floppy media into image files for use with > > > >>> virtualbox or bhyve VMs. -- (One could say the same for CD and DVD > driv > > es. > > > >>> My new laptop at $JOB has no CD/DVD drive.) I digress. I think the > abil > > ity > > > >>> to copy media to image files for VMs might be a reason to keep > some for > > m of > > > >>> support fd or ufd. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here... > > > > > > > > What I'm saying is that maintaining some form of fdc support whether > it b > > e > > > > in fdc(4) or a USB floppy the ability to dd floppy images for > subsequent > > > > use in a VM would be desirable. I'm thinking of one example brought > to my > > > > attention about a month ago where a person I know needed to copy old > flop > > py > > > > disks to images on his hard drive in order to install an old sewing > machi > > ne > > > > application in a virtualbox VM running Windows. > > > > > > > > Tangentially speaking, we could make the same case for CD and DVD > drives > > > > not too many years from now... > > > > > > > > Personally, I don't care much (well maybe just a little) if fdc(4) > itself > > > > is removed however I think we need some kind of support, which USB > fd can > > > > supply if or when fdc(4) is removed. Maybe we should deprecate in 12 > and > > > > remove in 13? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I think as long as you can read and write USB floppy drives under > > > FreeBSD, this change is OK. Even though floppies are old-tech they are > > > still important: > > > > > > https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/05/25/2054255/us- > military-uses-8-inch-fl > > oppy-disks-to-coordinate-nuclear-force-operations > > > > > > And from time to time we see criminal cases popping up with crazy > people > > > using old C64's with floppy disks. I would feel bad if removing support > > > for floppies from FreeBSD would mean you would depend on a Windows > > > installation to read such disks. > > > > > > Further, keep this change two-step. First remove the code from GENERIC. > > > Then wait a year and see if anyone complains. Then delete the source > code. > > > > > > --HPS > > > > I was gona keep quiet on this, but, well, I just cant now. If you remove > > the entry from GENERIC no one well complain, the more likely case is they > > well just compile a customer kernel and do there work. So using this as > > a "is anyone using it" is a straw man. > > > > That being said, even an old crusty fart like me only has had to deal > > with a 1.44 MB floppy in nearly a year, but I was very glad that I COULD > > deal with it using my prefered OS. > > > > Now I have lots of hardware around so it was not hard for me to find > > a TEAC 1.44 drive and hook it to my forensics motherboard and deal > > with the image, maybe it is good I am stuck on 5.4 with that system > > as it sounds like someone has broken yet another part of FreeBSD > > in the name of some progress. > > > > **RANT ON** > > > > Data point: OpenBSD still supports install from floppies.. so > > my guess is that OpenBSD has been able to keep this code running, > > it is a "Sad State of Affairs" that FreeBSD with 300+ developers > > can not manage the same. As Eitan pointed out, its only a 1000 > > lines so of code. Really now, we can manage to keep the mass > > of clang and zfs running, but we can not keep a 1000 line fdc.c > > running? > The floppy driver itself is fine. It relies, however, on ISADMA working. It got broken and nobody noticed. Also, FreeBSD has SMP while OpenBSD does not, so that's been a much larger code velocity over all. > > I further know of someone who just told me they completed > > a converson of a stack of old 1.44MB floppies and 100MB > > zip disks to image files, and I am pretty sure that person > > is running 11.1 on a laptop, so this was probably done > > with the USB fd code, so I suppose we do have some form > > of support. It is possible that person netbooted an > > older desktop to do the work, as he does have those types > > of abilities. > Reading works OK. It's writing that fails. So this datapoint is consistent with my experience. There's other issues that need to be fixed apart from ISADMA, but those are minor in comparison. > > **DOUBLE RANT** > > > > Having been gone from the project for a long time and > > looking at it from the outside my observation is that > > FreeBSD is a lot of new toys that work fairly well and > > a collection of rotting bits that get the axe every few > > years. > > > > Each and everytime I have tried to move my collection > > of systems forward I have run into yet another thing that > > has simply been killed cause no one maintained it, broken > > cause someone added/changed something else and allowed it > > to sit and rot tell it was axed cause it was broken. > > > > If we, that is FreeBSD, continue on this path I can promise > > you our PR data base today well look like a mud puddle > > comparied to the ocean we shall create. > > > > Rather than spend time running around the tree finding > > rotting code to delete there needs to be a serious > > effort running around the tree FIXING the code that has > > rotted cause some new fangled thing borked it. > The trouble is that the skillsets necessary to fix the rotting code generally only exist in a small number of people, while just about anybody can wield an axe. And lots of people do fix things, but people don't notice so much because (a) they are still working and (b) the fixes tend to be in relatively close proximity to the breakage. It's only when they don't that it becomes an issue. > > ** END RANTS** > > I've spent some time thinking about this while cleaning up the yard of old > leaves today. All three of my machines downstairs still have fdc(4) > controllers and take a poke at it. > > USB floppy does also work. The ufdformat USB floppy format (not yet > committed, thank you bms@) also works in 12 (it didn't in 7 due to borked > USB in 7). I've yet to decide whether to commit it as is or merge it into > the existing fdformat. I'd commit it as is (ufdformat). It's functionality is quite a bit different because the CDBs are much less expressive than the full NEC 765 chip supports (which is itself a subset of what you can do on a floppy, but I digress). Warner
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