Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:43:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson <jdn@acp.qiv.com> To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au> Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>, ben@rosengart.com, Darren Reed <avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 2.2.6 CD-ROM : Package dependencies up the creek ? Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980615194034.1224A-100000@acp.qiv.com> In-Reply-To: <19980616095005.64408@welearn.com.au>
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On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Sue Blake wrote: ... >> Umm, Sue, I appreciate all that you do to help newbies, but I think > >Good deeds never stopped anyone from doing bad deeds :-) For what it's worth, this is my opinion. Jordan is correct in pointing out that FreeBSD is a volunteer effort. Those that do, pick the direction. I'm concerned about some of the directions FreeBSD may take, but on the other hand, I'm not contributing so it is not my place to complain. I am enjoying the effort of _many_ people with no cost but my time. Just a few years ago, we didn't have all the free alternatives we enjoy today. I'm more concerned about the clamor to make FreeBSD newbie friendly. I don't think Unix, of any flavor, is appropriate for a newbie who hasn't paid their dues and earned a basic understanding of the dirty underside of computers and operating systems. The nature of the problem Unix addresses is fundamentally more complex that what Windows/Dos/CPM, et.al., addressed and simply requires more to make it operate productively. Why shouldn't FreeBSD be pointed to experts only, if that's the direction FreeBSD goes? (FreeBSD, by the way, is the most friendly Unix I've used.) I'm worried that an effort to make FreeBSD "user friendly" would only cripple what I need to do. Elements of that are already creeping in. /usr/local/etc/rc.d, for example, that just annoys the snot out of me. But I understand why it is there, don't begrudge it and quietly "fix" it. You see, when I first came to Unix, no one gave a tinkers damn whether it was friendly or not. It was intended to do a job and I was expected to bring the skills to handle it. I didn't know any more than any newbie today. What I discovered, though, was that if I asked a reasonable question, the experts were more than happy to help -- much like you find here on the lists. The rest was up to me. Eventually, I learned. Frankly, I'm a little annoyed that many newcomers want the benefits of a free Unix OS but expect a sweet, gooey, wet M$ kiss to make all the effort go away. But, such is the world today. ... >Sure. Like I said, problems are not an issue at all. If they can't be >fixed right away, or at all, that's acceptable. We can document it to >protect the unprepared if necessary. Why protect the unprepared? That's almost an oxymoron. How can you create documents that most don't read? Since 2.0, I've found the docs more than adequate to get a production system up and running, so I'm a bit unsympathetic. >The only thing that really gets my goat is pretending that if it's not an >issue for an expert then it won't be an issue to anyone else. I haven't seen that at all. >I doubt many would want either of them. I found it very difficult to get >1. advice on how much space each distribution would take to install > (which is not the same as final disk space) How can you advise on something so variable? How do you measure it? 2 x *.gz size? >2. advice during or before installation on the size of packages, like > is it a few K or a few tens of megs. And what good would that do when the person installing has no idea of how much space is available? Sort out which filesystems all of it uses and report on each? Sounds like you'ld rather all of us have to sit there answering questions than have an automated install. >Anything to assist here would be worthwhile. I guess definition of "assist" is probably the question. >I also took objection to the idea that packages should not be available >during installation. That would cut out freebsd's accessibility to a lot >of newbies. My one concern was that it sounded like that didn't matter to >anyone. Why would you object? I'm happy packages are available at all. Have you worked with Solaris? >> about it. If you want it fixed, FIX IT! > >Sure, as soon as I can I will, but isn't that a bit of a catch 22? Well, therein lies the nub. If you want any OS to do what you want, you have to bring enough to the party; you have to learn how to do it. There's no catch22 at all. I love to cook. How can you be a good cook unless you pay your dues in front of the stove? >Obviously I don't feel frustrated about freebsd as I did back then. If >others feel like that now, nobody will get to see their anger, they'll >just drift away bad-mouthing freebsd. We have to avoid that happening >where it is reasonably practical to do so. Tailoring everything to >experts is an easy trap to slip into. We're just starting to come out of >that trap and when I think I see people slipping back into it it scares >the bejeebers outa me. Why does everything have to be tailored to the lowest common denominator? Is it a bad thing that a _good_ tool requires more than a _poor_ tool? >> That's the lovely thing about free software - you have that option and >> are always encouraged to exercise it, no matter who you are, if it's >> something you really really want. If you're not motivated enough to >> gain the skills necessary to do it, then I guess you didn't want the >> feature that much after all, did ya? :-) > >I have shown many sides, but I don't think I have ever shown lack of >motivation. Hand over the tardis and I'll shut up and fix it :-) Sue, I think you have shown a little lack of motivation. A free OS is a volunteer effort that is shaped by those who contribute. No one has any obligation to hand over anything. I think we should be thankful for what we have. If we can't contribute, we shouldn't complain. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
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