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Date:      Wed, 03 Jan 2001 12:25:01 -0700
From:      Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com>
To:        Will Andrews <will@physics.purdue.edu>
Cc:        Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>, "Michael C . Wu" <keichii@iteration.net>, freebsd-mobile@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: pao 3.5.1 wicontol 
Message-ID:  <200101031925.f03JP1114651@harmony.village.org>
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 03 Jan 2001 13:49:17 EST." <20010103134916.O86630@argon.firepipe.net> 
References:  <20010103134916.O86630@argon.firepipe.net>  <E14DsJe-000H4w-00@rip.psg.com> <E14DkE5-00012l-00@rip.psg.com> <E14Dg86-000ItP-00@rip.psg.com> <20010103003212.A18784@pir.net> <E14Dh7q-000KqH-00@rip.psg.com> <20010103011054.C65492@peorth.iteration.net> <200101031755.f03HtEs31828@billy-club.village.org> <200101031811.f03IBss32215@billy-club.village.org> <E14Dsu7-000IGz-00@rip.psg.com> 

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In message <20010103134916.O86630@argon.firepipe.net> Will Andrews writes:
: If you want substantiated complaining... PAO was a mistake in the first
: place.  It should've started as an effort in the main tree, NOT as a
: maintained patchset.  Of course, I don't really know the history behind
: this, but that's my opinion regardless.

PAO did a number of things right and a number of things wrong (like
all projects do).  There was reluctance to have it in the tree from
the early days due to some of these issues.  This reluctance lead to
the nearly complete split from FreeSBD for laptop (and later a few
other issues).  That was mostly due to the fact that no one had the
time it would have taken to shepard all those changes into the FreeBSD
tree working with the PAO folks to resolve issues.  It was a case of
"no, I don't have anything better, but these are too hackish to be
allowed into the tree."  It has taken time to merge these changes back
into FreeBSD, or have them be obsoleted by other fixes in the system.

The PAO folks have taught the project many things about how to deal
with code that might not be perfect, but is better than what we have
(eg nothing).  It has also taught us about many people issues and
communications issues as well (and taught me a little Japanese to
boot).  Out of the PAO group came the newconfig project, which was a
fiasco for FreeBSD public relations due to how that was handled, the
language and cultural barriers, etc.

So don't go bad mouthing PAO (more technically PAO3) when you don't
know its history.  There are still some things in PAO that aren't in
-current, but that list grows much shorter every day.

: Besides, when nobody's getting paid to help you here, what did you expect?

I think that's a little over the top.  He stated clearly that he was
using PAO, that he wanted some help and that upgrading wasn't an
option for his situation (I've worked with Randy in the past and
understand where he's coming from).  Since I do not use or know PAO, I
can't help Randy with his problem today.

Warner


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