Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:33:51 +1000 From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au> To: David Marsh <drmarsh@bigfoot.com> Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Message-ID: <19980724103351.13100@welearn.com.au> In-Reply-To: <XFMail.980723234704.drmarsh@bigfoot.com>; from David Marsh on Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 11:00:08PM %2B0100 References: <199807180230.MAA15868@phoenix.welearn.com.au> <XFMail.980723234704.drmarsh@bigfoot.com>
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On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 11:00:08PM +0100, David Marsh wrote: > On 18-Jul-98 Sue Blake wrote: > > > > FreeBSD-Newbies is a discussion forum for newbies. We cover any of > > the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. > > Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding > > and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help > > elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general > > chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral > > I'm fairly new to this list [1] (and not /quite/ so new to FreeBSD, > although still a newbie 'administrator'), and I'm still not exactly > sure what it's for. > > [1] In fact, I didn't know it existed until the other day, as it's not > mentioned in the 2.2.5-era local webdocs that I installed on the CD I > borrowed from a friend, perhaps an example of the 'change' in newbyness: > old-skool newbies were probably learning how to administrate a > permanently connected academic or research box, new-skool newbies are, > I suspect, more likely to be getting going at home, and with most of > the world unable to afford to dialup and slurp the latest sources, we > might not always have the latest and greatest versions (or docs). That's at least partly the case, yes. The freebsd-newbies list only started late March this year. During that time we have discussed the role of this list and that of freebsd-questions ad nauseum. > I'm not sure why the decision has been made to direct *all* questions > to FreeBSD-questions. Many many reasons. Let's not start another enormous thread on this! There is no list specifically for newbie support or easy questions. Freebsd-questions is for all technical/support/help/how-to questions and answers, at any level. Anything that could be asked or answered on freebsd-questions is off topic for -newbies. One day there might be a special place to ask newbie technical questions. If that happens, it will not be this mailing list, it will be another one. If you want to know all the nitty-gritty details, either search the archives for hundreds of previous emails, or contact me privately if you wish. > This list seems fairly quiet, almost empty compared to -questions, so > I'm simply wondering why the 'simpler' questions couldn't be dealt > with here, on -newbies, which would hopefully allow the real experts on > -questions to get on with more important topics, than having to recite > FAQ references over again.. :-( If you don't like the way you are dealt with in freebsd-questions, then we need to deal with that. You can discuss that here. > Does this mean that questions along the lines of: > > Where is there a good tutorial on the more arcane features of 'vi' > (and one that's more readable and has more examples than `man vi')? Yes! > Does anybody know where I can get StarOffice documentation? > www.stardivision.com doesn't seem to have any. > > .would be acceptable topics for discussion here? Yes! > > You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a > > question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to > > Is this following example of 'meta-questioning' acceptable here? I'm not quite sure what you mean. > FreeBSD-questions is a very busy list, and so far, I'm duly subscribed > to it, but it is very timeconsuming to wade through. From my previous > internet experience, I know that it's generally considered rude to fire > questions at a list you don't subscribe to. > > So I'm wondering if -questions really is different in this case? > Do people not mind emailing answers directly to NON-subscribing > questioners? On most other lists that would be considered rude. On *all* freebsd lists it is considered rude (by many) to neglect to cc both the list and the person you're responding to. I subscribe to 50-60 mailing lists from a variety of sources. Each has their own little conventions, and in this particular respect the freebsd lists are different to most, yes. > And, to continue, the wise ones duly respond to such questions as > the above with "Check the website" or "Check the mailing list archive".. > Now, as you point out elsewhere, a large number of newbies (myself > included) access the internet intermittently over non-fixed dialup > links, usually paying for the holidays of telco executives quite > handsomely in the process.. > [Note for USAns: that means we have to pay for the phone calls ;-(] I know. I'm in Australia :-) What we have to realise though, is that freebsd-questions is inhabited by hundreds of the kind of people who get three-digit sums per hour, and they are happy to spend time to help us there for free, for as long as they enjoy doing so. They have to pay to get our questions too. This doesn't make it OK for you and me, of course, but it can help a bit to see it from their point of view. > While taking a brief check of the website for news or errata is > probably OK, doing an online search of mail-archves soon mounts up the > phone bill, which, IMO, means it would be better for people to be > subscribed to a list and following the threads. Whatever suits you best. You'll end up needing to search the archives at sime time. If you don't want to do either, on the web site you'll find a list of people who offer help for a fee, or you can work everything out yourself from the man pages and source code :-) Those options are far too expensive and/or slow for me, and probably for most of us. > Which comes back to my point that with -questions being very very busy, > and -newbies being very very quiet, I'd just like to politely suggest > that maybe we should be able to ask at least some of the more > 'low level' questions here? Sorry, that will not be possible. However, as I have said before, if you do wish to see a *separate* list for support/technical/how-to questions specifically for newbies, all you need to do is figure out how to make it work. That's the hard part. Who would be experienced enough to provide reliable answers, who would check that their answers were correct, who would take their place if they moved their free help out of -questions, and, the tricky one, why on earth would they want to be bothered, what enticements do you have to offer volunteers? If this does ever happen, it will need to be very thoroughly planned beforehand. > But please let me know if this has been gone over before or if I'm > treading on somebody's toes.. No toes, just... yaaaawwwwn... :-) > But I don't understand why "Where can I find documentation that I can > read so that I can use xxxx?" should be a -questions question, although > the more blunt "How do I use xxxx?" obviously would be..? One of the (many) purposes of this list is to provide help for people with using the mailing lists. Email-related questions, and questions about the best way to ask questions, are asked and answered here. FreeBSD-newbies keeps those sorts of things out of -questions, where it's OK to be ignorant. People here will gently help you get your email in shape so that the people in -questions won't rag you about it :-) And if there's documentation, most of us would much rather use that than go ask a question. By pointing each other to documentation we save each other discomfort and help each other to be not so dependent on -questions. > Isn't part of the newbie experience all about "Help! There's these big > horrible man pages: they don't make sense" or worse "Help! There > *isn't* a man page for this program" or "I've really really tried to > read the whole 300K man page, and it still doesn't make sense"? In that case, if you're trying to set something up or solve a problem it goes to -questions. But if it's a direct comment on documentation that would help those writing the docs, it goes to freebsd-doc. Another thing we do here is advise which list to use for a particular question or comment. Once again, by doing this here we reduce the volume and improve the mood on -questions. > > A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html > > to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant > > information > > Oh, that's news to me, too. It's only been there for a couple of months :-) > Now, if only I could find out how to get webcopy to work so that I > could download new sections and read them offline... OK, someone here might suggest what you could use to do this, point you to it and its documentation, and if you got stuck you could write to -questions. But you'd probably get better advice on what to use if you asked -questions in the first place. > If a lot of these developments (the newbies page and the newbies list > itself) are only just starting to get off the ground, maybe it will > take some time for this information to filter around so that the really > clueless newbies (the "How much space on my C: drive will FreeBSD > take?" ones) might start looking here for advice in the first place..? No, if they start looking here for technical advice, or offering it here, they'll be gently advised that they are acting against the published list charter. That kind of question can be and therefore is answered in freebsd-questions. > > believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, > > not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the > > I think that having a single monolithic -questions group isn't the best > way to deal with things, as it becomes too much for people to keep up > with, not least the long-term answerers themselves, I'm sure. OK, that's a separate issue. It's a gripe. It's a gripe likely to be a particularly nasty gripe for newbies. We can let off steam a bit here because it's chatty, so long as we don't fire steam at each other. (We need at least one place where "all is forgiven" :-) Usually after being free to whinge a bit we end up calming down and working out real solutions! > There doesn't seem to be much discussion going on, unfortunately. No, we haven't heard much from you at all yet :-) Tell us what you're up to with FreeBSD. > I do feel that the current list charter is slightly too restrictive, > and also a bit abstract and vague such that it probably dissuades > people from posting as it's not really clear what can be discussed here. If you believe, as some do, that newbies are defined by their help-seeking behaviour, then you will be totally dissatisfied with this list. If you believe that newbies can and do do a lot more than seek help, even contribute to the FreeBSD Project in many ways, then you might find this a nice little low volume low signal high noise list that's kinda nice to hang around :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
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