Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:30:09 -0700 From: "Michael P. Sale" <mike@merchantsnet.com> To: "Sue Blake" <sue@welearn.com.au> Cc: <freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Lists, newbies & support (was: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD) Message-ID: <01bd9a26$571e9a20$3c06bccc@708644668>
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>Why would they want to watch two lists when they believe they are doing >an adequate job in the one that exists. The problem I believe lies in the fact that they *believe* that questions is enough. I personally do not believe that it is. >They won't be paid overtime. As I said, the questions are allready being answered somewhere. Or is it just that everyone believes that if there was a newbies-questions list that newbies would actually start asking "newbie" questions. There is only overtime if you believe the latter. If you believe the latter, then there is a deficency. >And for that matter, why should we have to look in two places for answers. I have a hard time believing you even wrote that. When I look for information pertaining to this OS, I look in so many different places it's not even funny. It is usually a fairly long search as well. I believe that such a group would actually cut down on the search time for such answers. >There is no clear distinction between newbies level questions and more >difficult questions, so we'd be looking all over. I completely disagree. If that were true, one would only need to write one book per OS and be done with it. "How do I mount a drive" and "my server just blew up after doing an upgrade" are pretty different questions requireing different levels of expertise. I will agree that you may be right in the fact that newbie users may have a tough time differentiating between the two. >I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. When newbies ask a >question thinking this is the right place, I explain that it's -questions >they want. When they do it a second time I get persistent. When >non-newbies horn in I tell them to piss off. I have invited others to >shepherd people to questions if they seem to misunderstand, and that is >posted here every week. What I am getting at is that you tend to berrate people. It's pretty simple. You do it with :-), but you still do it. There is a reason that everyone specifically names you when they think they are asking a question. If the list were really just the list, then they would be worried about getting grief from the list, not you. >I'm not too worried about success. When the advocacy group started this >one dried up, not that it was huge before, but there was a definite drift >to -advocacy since that's what we'd been talking about a lot here. I don't believe that you are not worried about sucess. Everytime you post to this group, you show that you want this group to be sucessfull at it's charter. (That's a compliment in case you missed it among the other muck) > >If people want to use this list they will. If they don't it'll fade into >a corner and die some time. I'm not into measuring. What I do regard as >successful is the things we've achieved through meeting each other here, >rather than rating the list itself. It has given some of us a chance to >be active and to see other newbies being active, instead of always >passive. >Not everyone regards that as an achievement. Hell, I regard remembering >how to use chmod a big acheivement, but you don't have to :-) If that's how you define a success, then this list has been successfull so far. I believe that getting newbies involved in the other aspects of FreeBSD is important too, I just think that there should be more resources for us as well. >Fine. Create one. Sue, I think you miss a point that has not been spoken. I am a FreeBSD newbie, not an advocate. (I don't know enough about the darn thing to be an advocate.) If as a newbie, I have to expend the energy to create something that does not exist so I can figure out how much I really like an OS, I have to wonder wether or not it's worth it. I have to run a business and be a geek (18 hr a day job already) and now you want me to wade into unfamiliar waters and wrassle with forces that have clearly not seen the same issues I do. I'll get right on that. >They wouldn't get a chance. The place would be full of ex-newbies >answering easy questions with bad answers and intimidating the newbies >who'd otherwise have a go :-) Again, then people would stop asking questions on such a list. I'm not sure how much more you want me to prove a point. >And some people in -questions and elsewhere would go back to spreading >the belief that every newbie is a braindead sloth who wants personal >hand-holding and just makes more work for everyone else by spreading >misinformation, a liability who doesn't deserve any consideration because >they'll never be bothered to help themselves. Go right ahead, prove it :-) This is a problem with ANYTHING technical and is not a FreeBSD only issue. Some newbies are such creatures while others are not. The truth is that FreeBSD is eons behind other OS's in being a good tool for newbies. More specifically unix newbies. As long as the documentation is sparse and the support is not aimed towards such a group, it will stay that way. Since I don't see too many books on FreeBSD out there I think that the deficency needs to be made up for with a newbies-questions group. >I am always careful what I wish for. Wishes are what keep us trying. >Today I am very trying. Today I am being very trying. :-) >I thought I cleared that up ages ago. This list is unmoderated, but it is >facilitated to some extent because there are things that newbies need to >be advised on that are not support, like who does the web pages or how >come there's a mailing list for hacking. In other forums the term >moderator is used with a different meaning and one day I picked the wrong >word. I just happen to know more than most newbies about email, I've been >around a while, and I don't mind a bit of dirty work. Stick your neck out >among newbies and you get a stream of personal email because they don't >know how to use group-reply yet or think they're the only person in the >world in their situation and they'll be laughed at. Call that job what >you will. Consider it settled. > >As for authority, whatever authority I may or may not be believed to have >is irrelevant. I will use everything I can grab to put non-newbies in >their place when their behaviour threatens to usurp the authority of the >newbie members of this list. Consider it back to unsettled. You can't have it both ways and think someones not going to say something. The autority you wield is inherent in the fact that you have more knowledge than most FreeBSD newbies and (from what I gather) that you were essentially the driving force behind this list. ****I think you should either acknowledge the authority and use it or let it be.**** Again, I really like the list the way it is and have said so more than once. The issue for me is not your managing the list, but the need for another list for newbie questions. Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
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