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Date:      Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:29:15 -0500 (EST)
From:      Jamie Bowden <jamie@itribe.net>
To:        John Peter DeVale <jdevale@ece.cmu.edu>
Cc:        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: FreeBSD Netcards
Message-ID:  <199801091427.JAA07552@gatekeeper.itribe.net>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980109085641.2182C-100000@skate.ece.cmu.edu>

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On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, John Peter DeVale wrote:

> On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Jamie Bowden wrote:

> Well, the benchmarks are not about performance as we really think of it -
> as in faster is better.  These benchmarks are about how well the system
> stands up to rocks beting thrown at it.  Meaning, does the system casue
> the process to abort (ungracefully) when it should return an error code
> and terminate the process in a controlled fashion.  In some systems, the
> entire OS can be crashed via user code - most notably Irix 6.2 or 6.3, or
> whatever the latest irix is.
> 
> Network performance isn't an issue, except since I didn't have a freeBSD
> disc, I needed the network up to ftp the install binaries.
> 
> So, as far as that goes, freeBSD was, to my surprise, one of the worst
> offenders.  Linux, on the other hand, did very well in our tests.  I have
> given it alot of thought, and I think I know why this is.  I think that
> the average freeBSD user is in general a more advanced computer person,
> who knows how to operate a system, and programs well (excluding you of
> course on the last item :) ).  Thus when her/his program aborts
> catastrophically, they debug it, and feel stupid that they did something
> like pass NULL to atoi (which actually causes an abort in freeBSD).  The
> linux users, on the other hand, can't figure it out, or bitch and whine,
> and as a result, the system call is fixed to return an error code instead
> of an abort.  Since you have to know about these bugs to fix them, it
> seems likely that freeBSD users/programmers just do fewer stupid things.
> 
> So, now that I have explained what the benchmarks are, you may be saying
> to yourself, that sounds really stupid.  You wouldn't be the first.  While
> it would be nice if the OS people fixed all these things, keep in mind
> that the real target is thrid party libraries to be used in
> mission-critical systems that are supposed to be fault tolerant.  Meaning
> they degrade gracefully, rather than crash the process.  Operating systems
> just provided us with a rich set of different objects with a common
> interface to test on.  Although some people here in the fault tolerant
> computing group think that they should fix every possible bug, this is
> ludicrous.  With the exception of the OS's we tested that claimed to be
> fault tolerant real time operating systems, there is no payoff for the
> vendor to jump through hoops to get all of these robustness problems
> fixed.  It might do some good for them to fix the easy ones though.  For
> instance, many many problems are caused by nulls getting passed in to
> system calls.  Sure, the programmer should test this out, but they still
> creep in, especially in complex programs.  If you could fix a large amount
> of these problems just by adding in null checks to the system calls, it
> would be pretty easy, and inexpensive in terms of cpu overhead.
> 
> In any case, you are welcome to check out bang, or not.  Since you have
> been so helpful I just wanted to give you the opportunity to check it out
> if you wanted to.
> 
> thanks again,
> 
> John
> 
> 

I have cc'd this to freebsd-hackers because I think quite a few of them
might be very interested in what you are doing.  I could also be very
wrong.  

-- 
Jamie Bowden
Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net

If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up.  But boggle can go.
	-Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle)




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