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Date:      Sat, 6 Aug 2016 11:09:24 -0400 (EDT)
From:      Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@MIT.EDU>
To:        Baptiste Daroussin <bapt@FreeBSD.org>
Cc:        "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog@FreeBSD.org>, Andrey Chernov <ache@FreeBSD.org>, Mark Martinec <Mark.Martinec+freebsd@ijs.si>, freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org
Subject:   Re: date(1) default format changed between 10.3 and 11.0-BETA3
Message-ID:  <alpine.GSO.1.10.1608061107470.5272@multics.mit.edu>
In-Reply-To: <20160806100053.5fpf27pcgona7czp@ivaldir.etoilebsd.net>
References:  <dc9483611fd37e051fb68532daf10066@mailbox.ijs.si> <3629a441-ee6d-2407-fa13-5ebd8db8d802@freebsd.org> <000c29ee0f3dbd1d433c565023d69e25@mailbox.ijs.si> <a260a332-0c30-2338-bdd8-840524e8bfd8@freebsd.org> <f51cd89227047ff9249d9ecd68cf1646@mailbox.ijs.si> <279e9b67-da23-cdd6-3a77-b084ad8269eb@freebsd.org> <e851f0064ec13ff99d64e63b74f10d58@mailbox.ijs.si> <4a454eef-55ae-b90d-4441-2aa9708fc747@freebsd.org> <20160806041536.GL86883@eureka.lemis.com> <20160806100053.5fpf27pcgona7czp@ivaldir.etoilebsd.net>

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On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Baptiste Daroussin wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 06, 2016 at 02:15:36PM +1000, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> > On Friday,  5 August 2016 at 18:56:33 +0300, Andrey A. Chernov wrote:
> > > On 05.08.2016 18:44, Mark Martinec wrote:
> > >> On 2016-08-05 17:23, Andrey Chernov wrote:
> > >>
> > >> POSIX does say that the default format should be the same
> > >> as with "+%a %b %e %H:%M:%S %Z %Y".
> > >> It also says that %a and %b are locale's abbreviated names.
> > >
> > > It is true for _POSIX_ locale only, as I already say. en_US.* is not
> > > POSIX or C locale.
> >
> > It still violates POLA.
> >
> I really do not think that it violates POLA fiven that the behaviour you are
> expecting is still available in the default configurtion that is still POSIX.

Regardless, at a new major release is precisely when it is permissible to
break POLA.

> Set LC_TIME to C and then you are back on your behaviour (and this is the
> default when you install FreeBSD).
>
> locales should be seen as tzdata for exemple, they are a moving target
> complicated to handle for every locale we do support: 78 for 11.0-RELEASE and
> 193 if we do count the encoding variants. locales are updated very often (for
> exemple cldr unicode make a new release of the data every 8 month or so)

As I understand it, your change will improve the maintainability of
locales in FreeBSD in the future, which justifies a POLA break at the
release boundary.

-Ben



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