Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 19:09:26 -0400 From: dennis@etinc.com (Dennis) To: "Karl Denninger, MCSNet" <karl@mcs.com> Cc: hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ISDN Compression Load on CPU Message-ID: <199605232309.TAA29413@etinc.com>
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>> >I've lived in this world for 15 years and built real, no-nonsense commercial >> >networks the entire time. Reality isn't a dream, or a wish, its reality... >> > >> you're only 15 years old? you seem older :-) >> >> >I also have no financial stake in this debate or my position in it. That >> >is, no firm which I own, operate, work for or own stock in wins or loses if >> >you (or I) am right. >> >> Karl, as much as i respect your experience, I've been reading your stuff for >> "a long time" and one conclusion that is very clear is that you are anything >> but mainstream. No offense, but you're on the wrong list if you think that >>theres no limit to the quality/cost issue, particularly when its not clear that >> there is still a substantial quality advantage with the "big boys". A >> pentium 133 >> with 2 T1 ports and 2 ethernets can totally blow the doors off a 2500 series >> for the same money and add a couple more T1s and it easily matches or >> outperforms a 4000 series for 1/3 the cost. To say you're not going to >> consider >> it because its a PC is pretty '80sish if you ask me. Cisco is just coming out >> with frame relay congestion management now, for petes sake (when the rest >> of the world has had it for a year); they're not even a market leader anymore. >> >>I just got off the phone with someone whos ISP told them that they'd be >> paying a >> substantial "throughput penalty" by running a RISC-based card in their >> Pentium instead >> of using a Livingston 56k FR external router. What planet are these guys >> living on, >> anyway? >> >> And didnt Ascend just acquire morningstar?...I guess they think theres a >> place for >> PC routers in the marketplace, why dont you? >> >> Dennis >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Emerging Technologies, Inc. http://www.etinc.com >> >> Synchronous Communications Cards and Routers For >> Discriminating Tastes. 56k to T1 and beyond. Frame >> Relay, PPP, HDLC, and X.25 for BSD/OS, FreeBSD >> and LINUX > >Its simple Dennis. > >Tell me why Alternet, ANS, NearNet, Sprint, MCI, BBNPlanet, MCSNet, AGIS, >and nearly every other *real* ISP out there doesn't run these routers if >they REALLY are a better mousetrap. Of course, most of the guys you listed arent end-user ISPs as their main business...so you're off base. Of course BBN is one of my largest customers...so they must be doing something with PCs! I never said it was a better mousetrap, just a viable alternative. Plus your talking scale, for which PCs arent gonna compete with 7000s for density. Most big companies have to use only a handful of products otherwise support is a nightmare....Sprint insists on Ciscos because they know them and they can support them, not because their better or the only ones that work. Your problem is that you think that you're a real ISP and the tens of thousands of little guys aren't. You probably think that people who live in small apartments arent people, but like the small ISPs theres a lot more of them than there are "big guys". Perhaps when you go to buy a car, you dont consider anything that isnt a mercedes, or BMW or Lexus. But like i said, you're not mainstream. > >Tell me why my customers want to buy things like ASCEND P130s instead of >these boxes. Im sure that you dont talk them into it or anything.....Most isps try to get their customers to use what they do....less problems. Christ, most ISPs are running proprietary encapsulation over frame relay and dont even know it. You dont have to know what your doing if all of your customers use the same equipment with the same defaults as you do. >You have a market to protect. I don't. That's going to bias the equation >and your opinions, whether conscious or not. Actually, I have a market to SERVICE. Theres demand, lots of it and your statements indicate that either dont understand the small-isp market or you dont care. Denying that the rest of the world exists is ridiculous. > >Frankly, I believe the marketing and sales people ought to stay the hell off >the FreeBSD lists, and I happen to LIKE the operating system (and use it in >what I believe is its intended place). Uh...well Im also a developer...are you? >Show up at a public peering point with one of these "routers" and see how >many of the real players will trust the data coming from that hacked gated >and will peer freely with you. Then look at the thrash rate and explain how >you think you can route under convergence situations with anything >approaching a real (as in 34 - 45mbps HSSI-class) load without melting >completely. as i said, your not mainstream. We're talking about low-end routers here and your talking about backgone T3 switches. > >The real world ain't made up of one and two port boxes. Remember that most of the connections in the world are leafs, and for every ISP with a 7000 theres 30 guys with 1 t1 or less. >In the end-customer locations where it is, the new products like the ASCEND >P130 blow the doors off a PC solution, are more stable, and *CHEAPER*. > >LOTS cheaper. > >Build me an end-user router for $2,000 using your solution *INCLUDING* all >software, hardware, CSU/DSU, etc -- electrical RJ-45 T1 to Ethernet, >end-to-end. The SDL board *ALONE* is close to $1,000, and you haven't >bought a processor, RAM, disk drive, case, power supply, display, etc. > >Oh, make sure you include BRI ISDN backup capability in that box. The P130 >does, fully integrated, dial-on-demand. > >Now figure the fact that the $2,000 P130 price is a LIST price, and is >typically discounted 20-30%, that this thing draws something like 18 >watts, and can literally be stuck on a wall near the Ethernet concentrator >that feeds your offices, while your "PC" requires not only a keyboard and >monitor (big and bulky) but draws a couple of hundred heat-producing watts >from the wall. requires a keyboard and monitor? Where've you been the past decade? Well guess what? for less than $3000. I can give you a 4 T1 system with full bgp peering thats faster than a 4XXX series, with 100Mbs ethernet...shall i go on? 'Nuff said. dennis
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