Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 00:18:15 -0400 From: Mikhail Teterin <mi+kde@aldan.algebra.com> To: "Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru> Cc: i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, Maxim Sobolev <sobomax@FreeBSD.ORG>, anholt@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u (Re: cvs commit: ports/x11-fonts/XFree86-4-fontCyrillic) Message-ID: <200209050018.15176@aldan> In-Reply-To: <20020905021640.GA37309@nagual.pp.ru> References: <200209031042.g83AgFON078508@freefall.freebsd.org> <200209041155.15033.mi%2Bmx@aldan.algebra.com> <20020905021640.GA37309@nagual.pp.ru>
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On Wednesday 04 September 2002 10:16 pm, Andrey A. Chernov wrote: = On Wed, Sep 04, 2002 at 11:57:17 -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: = > Can you name one scenario, where someone would knowingly prefer a koi8-r = > font over a koi8-u one? In other words, some real application, that = This is not subject of user preferences or user choice. If some program = request koi8-r, it must get koi8-r back exactly, because it *may* use its = special chars. It seems you don't undertsand compatibility issues. If = koi8-r can be replaced, it can be replaced by Unicode only. Such application will be able to use any other encoding as well as have voice interface and the ability to water flowers. Any statement is true about the elements of an empty set, Andrey. And we both know, the set is empty and will remain empty (see the quote below) -- even if the new Cronyx fonts finally provide the entire KOI8-R, the X11 does not and thus no app will rely on it. I understand the compatibility issues, and I know, that no vendor would write an application, that uses those special characters -- because of, uhm, compatibility issues... = > As I mentioned already, koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u, let's move on. = I have no time to educate ignorant people, but as FreeBDS localization = authority, I explicetely forbid any attempts to replace koi8-r with = something less compatible (i.e. not by Unicode). Is it clear? It is clear, that you are out of arguments. And that you should be relieved of your tzar-like position ASAP :-( You failed it as follows: . You make an incomplete set of "good enough", but not standard compliant KOI8-R fonts (see quote below) available at your web-site and send them to XFree86, pretending/implying that . the fonts you distribute are KOI8-R . KOI8-R *IS* Cyrillic Practicality rules -- standards be damned -- we need to be able to read/write in Russian! . You are perfectly comfortable with XFree86 distributing those fonts as KOI8-R ones and "KOI8-R" as "Cyrillic", even after . the KOI8-U is introduced (you even helped them with the RFC, so you *knew* about it) . after the more updated KOI8-R fonts became available elsewhere; . Although it may be difficult to reach the right person at the XFree86 project (you did succeed once), you did not even bother to make sure the FreeBSD's XFree86 ports use the correct fonts and names -- for YEARS -- until Maxim improved the present situation... Now, all of a sudden, standards suddenly started to matter and practical issues such as diskspace and X-server's memory stopped... Don't you think, this is not how a responsible "internationalization authority" should act -- to remain a respected ruler, rather than a pitty tyrant? "Character accusations"? You bet! = Enough on this thread from me, see my second paragraph from above as my = final statement. Yada-yada... = Just recall an example understandable by non-Cyrillic related people: = ISO 8859-15 differs from ISO 8859-1 only by 8 characters and is "modern", = but nobody suggest to silently replace ISO 8859-1 fonts with 8859-15 fonts = everywhere and so on. I would suggest just that -- if no application really uses those 8 characters. I'm not certain that's the case, though. But I'm certain about it with koi8-r vs. koi8-u (or -c). And lack of counterexamples from you implies, that you are too. The "non-standard" cry is all you have to say. May be, after authoring the koi8-r you don't want to see it vanish. But standards change. New RFCs obsolete, modify, invalidate old ones -- happens all the time in all domains... Sometimes a standard is discarded even without a formal replacement -- even in FreeBSD (tcp_drop_synfin, for example). This particular standard -- koi8-r -- was introduced by you, and it increasingly looks like your personal attachment to it is affecting your judgement. I'll finish with the quote from the author of the koi8-c staff. You can find his xcyr.README.en in the http://oldrus-ispell.sourceforge.net/xcyr-2.3.tar.gz In comparison with KOI8-R, many linedrawing and other characters have been replaced by various Cyrillic letters and most frequently needed typographic characters. The removed characters were chosen according to the consideration that they are in fact never used in modern computing environments. In particular, the only available set of X window fonts in the KOI8-R encoding (the "xrus" package of Andrey Chernov and its descendants) never had any of the characters I removed from the KOI8-R map and there seems to be no software that makes use of these characters. Therefore, the replacement of KOI8-R by KOI8-C will not affect any current computing environments, while at the same time it will enable the use of non-Russian Cyrillic characters as well as typographic symbols. There. And the koi8-u is even less intrusive than koi8-c. But now that I'm aware of the later, I think, we should move to it directly. -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-i18n" in the body of the message
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